Knights templar and their mariner division

Unless anyone ever unearths early 18th century rituals, we shall probably never know where the 3rd degree came from. One theory is that it was derived from the ceremony of Acception into the Masons' Company; another that it was used when a Fellow (note, NOT Fellow Craft in England - that is a Scottish term) achieved suffuicient status to become a Master of Masons (i.e. in overall charge of the work). Yet another is that either the 1st Degree was too long, so it was split and what was the old 2nd became the 3rd or that the 2nd was too long and was split. Both of these latter ideas seem unlikely, as well into the 18th Century, many Fellows never took the 3rd Degree - and, of course, we still obligate the Master-elect in the 2nd.
Now, can someone have a good look for that missing ritual????:)

Author	Message
Alan Campbell	Posted 12/12/2008 23:31:06
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 04/02/2012 12:02:46 Posts: 1,247, Visits: 2,228 1,391	Did the knights templar have a fleet of ships at their disposal, i suppose we know they did it or we wouldn't have the Arch mariner degree,Is it myth or fact that they and the vikings landed in mainland USA long before any other westerners. The rye grass which is native to that land is in the mouldings of Rosslyn Chapel and that was completed about 50 years before the said discovery. And if it is fact why do we still teach the Christopher Columbus fairytale in schools. Are the effigies of westerners on the pyramids in Mexico and the old Inca settlements of the knights templar or some other body of western seafarers
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lauderdale	Posted 12/12/2008 23:54:46
Excellent Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 10/07/2011 06:43:06 Posts: 2,136, Visits: 4,278 2,476	The KTs were like a multi-national company with a merchant fleet and banking houses in addition to their military side and this is no doubt what led to the jealousy of Philip the Fair of France and the Pope of the time and their persecution.
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bob c	Posted 13/12/2008 08:02:53
Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: Yesterday @ 16:35:29 Posts: 518, Visits: 1,564 798	Alan Campbell (12/12/2008) Did the knights templar have a fleet of ships at their disposal, i suppose we know they did it or we wouldn't have the Arch mariner degree Hi Alan, Not sure if this is a wind up to provoke a reaction.;) IMHO there is no connection between the Royal Ark Mariners degree and the medieval KT. In fact there is no proven link between any masonic degree and the KT. regards bob
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Alan Campbell	Posted 13/12/2008 21:43:37
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 04/02/2012 12:02:46 Posts: 1,247, Visits: 2,228 1,391	Of course it is Bob but i have to say that i have heard some brothers in the lounge after the meeting actually coming out with this type of stuff and worse still they believed what they were saying. As i have said in another thread on here no one knows the true origins of freemasonry so who is right and who is wrong.
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Lew Finnis	Posted 13/12/2008 22:47:48
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Active: 16/07/2010 22:00:05 Posts: 49, Visits: 130 74	We know the KT degree was invented in the mid-18th Century. In England RAM is associated with Mark so has no link at all with KT (except that they are administered from the same place). Their association in Scotland was really an administrative convenience as well. After all, RAM is a lovely stand-alone degree. Craft 8093 PProvGSD (Worcs); 881 (GL/BFG) PDepGDC RA 784 PProvGReg (Worcs) Mark 152 590(Hon) 1406 PProvGMOv (Worcs) RAM 152 590(Hon) ProvRAMGR KT 52 325 PGtCofG OSM 305 436 513 PGStwd RC 908 30° etc
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Russell Holland	Posted 14/12/2008 01:34:33
Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 11/12/2011 21:12:13 Posts: 334, Visits: 2,812 529	>We know the KT degree was invented in the mid-18th Century. One of the great mysteries of modern Masonry is the emergence of the 3rd degree In the space of a few years it went from being unknown to a landmark Are there other aspects of Masonry that have emerged or may emerge from nowhere and become landmarks? Could Masonry veil more than is suspected?
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bob c	Posted 14/12/2008 08:06:42
Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: Yesterday @ 16:35:29 Posts: 518, Visits: 1,564 798	Thought so Alan,:D While the origins of the craft are still in dispute I would argue that the formation of the craft in Scotland and that of England are 2 seperate beasts if you like. I tend to believe that England took what had happened in Scotland and formed their own similar system. It is true that some members believe all sorts of stories regarding our history, so each to their own I suppose. regards bob
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Lew Finnis	Posted 14/12/2008 16:59:21
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Active: 16/07/2010 22:00:05 Posts: 49, Visits: 130 74	Unless anyone ever unearths early 18th century rituals, we shall probably never know where the 3rd degree came from. One theory is that it was derived from the ceremony of Acception into the Masons' Company; another that it was used when a Fellow (note, NOT Fellow Craft in England - that is a Scottish term) achieved suffuicient status to become a Master of Masons (i.e. in overall charge of the work). Yet another is that either the 1st Degree was too long, so it was split and what was the old 2nd became the 3rd or that the 2nd was too long and was split. Both of these latter ideas seem unlikely, as well into the 18th Century, many Fellows never took the 3rd Degree - and, of course, we still obligate the Master-elect in the 2nd. Now, can someone have a good look for that missing ritual????:) Craft 8093 PProvGSD (Worcs); 881 (GL/BFG) PDepGDC RA 784 PProvGReg (Worcs) Mark 152 590(Hon) 1406 PProvGMOv (Worcs) RAM 152 590(Hon) ProvRAMGR KT 52 325 PGtCofG OSM 305 436 513 PGStwd RC 908 30° etc
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Alan Campbell	Posted 14/12/2008 17:20:00
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 04/02/2012 12:02:46 Posts: 1,247, Visits: 2,228 1,391	and, of course, we still obligate the Master-elect in the 2nd. quote] Maybe in England but not in Scotland, just another one of those little differences. I do find it interesting that the scottish craft seemed to start as operative and then turned speculative and the english craft started as speculative from the off. Maybe thats another reason why we have so many lodges working differently, as our grand lodge was brought in at a later date and UGLE seemed to be the founder of English masonry.
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lauderdale	Posted 14/12/2008 18:28:44
Excellent Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 10/07/2011 06:43:06 Posts: 2,136, Visits: 4,278 2,476	"...as our grand lodge was brought in at a later date and UGLE seemed to be the founder of English masonry." UGLE was founded in 1813 from the Union of the Antients and Modems Grand Lodges. GL of Scotland was founded in 1736 so your Grand Lodge pre-dates UGLE by some 77 years. It is true that what was to become known as the Grand Lodge of the Moderns was founded when four London Lodges met in a pub in that City to form a Grand Lodge in 1717. but they were only half of what became UGLE 96 years later. There is one Grand Lodge which claims to be older than UGLE and which dates from the time of the Anglo-Saxon King Athelstan in York although it does not have continuity of operation.
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Knights templar and their mariner division