TravisShores
|
Posted 07/08/2011 02:20:36
|
|
Group: Expelled
Last Active: 13/09/2011 23:35:05
Posts: 59,
Visits: 503
|
Torrentius (07/08/2011)
Getting mixed up with Crusaders perhaps ?
From my reading, the Templars were curiously "well in " with several Muslim and Jewish sects and would have been happy if not a single blow had been struck, so that they could have got on with the much more interesting (and lucrative ) activities of money transfer and digging stuff out the ground.
Yes, banking. Like most advanced entrepreneurs, they knew the warfare bit gets too sticky and finance and diplomacy go much much further...
Rural Lodge #29 F+AM of Vermont USA Mark,Past,Most Ex, RA, Royal+Select Edward J Wildblood Jr. Vermont Lodge of Research #110
|
|
|
|
|
D.I.R
|
Posted 02/11/2011 23:55:31
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 13/11/2011 23:03:13
Posts: 13,
Visits: 27
|
Well, 1717 is the official start date of Craft Masonry; however "mystery schools" can be dated back much further. The way that I have thought it to be is that whilst Craft Masonry itself may or may not have anything to do with KT. One has to be a Mason in order to join KT, or Rose-Croix etc.
I suppose a good analogy might be that when you join the Army, you have to undergo "basic training" first before you do whatever it is you want to do, i.e Chef, Driver, Intelligence corps, Signals etc. First and foremost you are a Soldier, then (for instance, a Chef).
Correct me if I''m wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Russell Holland
|
Posted 03/11/2011 03:16:03
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 11/12/2011 21:12:13
Posts: 334,
Visits: 2,812
|
This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but Idries Shah tells us quite specific aspects of Freemasonry that he says came from the Sufis via the Crusaders (presumably including the Templars). His account in The Sufis explains the meaning of some obscure Masonic practices.
http://www.amazon.com/Sufis-Idries-Shah/dp/0385079664
He does however explain that the reason that Freemasonry does not ascend very far is that Richard the Lionheart was only initiated into the lower levels of Sufism. (This is a hard saying and I cannot hear it)
|
|
|
|
|
bod
|
Posted 03/11/2011 14:02:17
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 03/02/2012 19:06:12
Posts: 706,
Visits: 2,996
|
D.I.R (02/11/2011)
Well, 1717 is the official start date of Craft Masonry; however "mystery schools" can be dated back much further. The way that I have thought it to be is that whilst Craft Masonry itself may or may not have anything to do with KT. One has to be a Mason in order to join KT, or Rose-Croix etc.
I suppose a good analogy might be that when you join the Army, you have to undergo "basic training" first before you do whatever it is you want to do, i.e Chef, Driver, Intelligence corps, Signals etc. First and foremost you are a Soldier, then (for instance, a Chef).
1717 is acknowledged as the dat eof the foundation of the first Grand Lodge - not of the start of Craft Freemasonry
Also, freemasons 'invented' the current KT ritual, etc, there is no definitive and provable link to the historic KT
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Martin
|
Posted 03/11/2011 14:18:55
|
Excellent Master
Group: Administrator
Last Active: 25 minutes ago
Posts: 2,321,
Visits: 11,820
|
D.I.R (02/11/2011)
Well, 1717 is the official start date of Craft Masonry; however "mystery schools" can be dated back much further. The way that I have thought it to be is that whilst Craft Masonry itself may or may not have anything to do with KT. One has to be a Mason in order to join KT, or Rose-Croix etc. I don't want to seem like I'm jumping on you especially within your first few posts BUT:
1717 is not the official start date of Craft Masonry at all, it is the year that the Grand Lodge of London and Westminster was founded by the members of four existing Craft Lodges.
Also I have already pointed out (earlier in this topic) that you ONLY have to be a Freemason to join the "Masonic" Knights Templar Order. However, there are several Orders that (with just as much right) are Knights Templar and they have no link at all to Freemasonry.
MikeMersey Lodge No. 5434 WebsiteThe Freemasons'''' Grand Charity WebsiteSee my BALLS here
|
|
|
|
|
Society of No-Homers
|
Posted 03/11/2011 19:08:05
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 05/02/2012 20:38:54
Posts: 88,
Visits: 1,171
|
bod (03/11/2011)
Also, freemasons 'invented' the current KT ritual, etc, there is no definitive and provable link to the historic KT
Oh how I wish some of my masonic friends would realise this. I really have to bite my tongue sometimes. In fact every one of them currently in the masonic KT or aspiring to join, seem to think it really is a continuation of the order from the medieval times of the crusades. What I find really distasteful at times , when they talk about it, is an air they give off that they are still somehow in crusader mode fighting the good fight against Islam. It is perhaps the main reason that I have avoided following their path.
--------------------------------------------------------- Always be sincere - ( even if you don`t mean it )
|
|
|
|
|
stonecutter
|
Posted 05/11/2011 17:47:37
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 1 hour ago
Posts: 35,
Visits: 581
|
Society of No-Homers (03/11/2011)
What I find really distasteful at times , when they talk about it, is an air they give off that they are still somehow in crusader mode fighting the good fight against Islam.
I find that very deeply disturbing and un-Masonic. I've not come accross it in our Province. And it is a good thing too, because I'd probably raise hell if I did. [ Please note that I'm not suggesting you should do so. I know the score. I just personally would be unable to stop myself. Call it a failing it you will, but there are far worse eccentricities for a man to have ]
I love your screen name, btw!
|
|
|
|
|
D.I.R
|
Posted 09/11/2011 23:02:22
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 13/11/2011 23:03:13
Posts: 13,
Visits: 27
|
Mike Martin (03/11/2011)
D.I.R (02/11/2011)
Well, 1717 is the official start date of Craft Masonry; however "mystery schools" can be dated back much further. The way that I have thought it to be is that whilst Craft Masonry itself may or may not have anything to do with KT. One has to be a Mason in order to join KT, or Rose-Croix etc. I don't want to seem like I'm jumping on you especially within your first few posts BUT: 1717 is not the official start date of Craft Masonry at all, it is the year that the Grand Lodge of London and Westminster was founded by the members of four existing Craft Lodges. Also I have already pointed out (earlier in this topic) that you ONLY have to be a Freemason to join the "Masonic" Knights Templar Order. However, there are several Orders that (with just as much right) are Knights Templar and they have no link at all to Freemasonry.
Thanks for the clarification. (I had wondered how Leonardo da Vinci's and Mozart's membership predated 1717.)
Society of No-Homers (03/11/2011)
bod (03/11/2011)
Also, freemasons 'invented' the current KT ritual, etc, there is no definitive and provable link to the historic KTOh how I wish some of my masonic friends would realise this. I really have to bite my tongue sometimes. In fact every one of them currently in the masonic KT or aspiring to join, seem to think it really is a continuation of the order from the medieval times of the crusades. What I find really distasteful at times , when they talk about it, is an air they give off that they are still somehow in crusader mode fighting the good fight against Islam. It is perhaps the main reason that I have avoided following their path.
I need to respond to your statement. The crusades which the Knights Templar fought in was started by the Pope of the catholic church who had his own agenda and issues false statements that Christians were being murdered by the "non-believers i.e Moslems and Jews". The pope also issued a statements telling the crusaders that all of their sins would be forgiven should they wage war. The Knights Templar at the time (prior to the crusades) offered (in a medieval way) the services that (for instance) G4S - the security group, offer today. The Knights Templar got caught up in the war and yes, both Moslems and Jews and others perished in the war - but the crusades were NOT a war against Islam (or any other Faith for that matter) but they WERE a war FOR the Church. In particular it was more of a "relic-grab" by the Kings and Queens of europe in an attempt to obtain artifacts which were believed to be hidden at the time in the Temple (such as the Ark of the covenant, or the Holy Grail, The shroud,etc - being examples)
(I think!)
Correct me if I''m wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
bob c
|
Posted 11/11/2011 21:36:20
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: Yesterday @ 16:35:29
Posts: 518,
Visits: 1,564
|
I need to respond to your statement. The crusades which the Knights Templar fought in was started by the Pope of the catholic church who had his own agenda and issues false statements that Christians were being murdered by the "non-believers i.e Moslems and Jews". The pope also issued a statements telling the crusaders that all of their sins would be forgiven should they wage war. The Knights Templar at the time (prior to the crusades) offered (in a medieval way) the services that (for instance) G4S - the security group, offer today. The Knights Templar got caught up in the war and yes, both Moslems and Jews and others perished in the war - but the crusades were NOT a war against Islam (or any other Faith for that matter) but they WERE a war FOR the Church. In particular it was more of a "relic-grab" by the Kings and Queens of europe in an attempt to obtain artifacts which were believed to be hidden at the time in the Temple (such as the Ark of the covenant, or the Holy Grail, The shroud,etc - being examples)
(I think!)[/quote]
There were numerous crusades, but they didn't actually start until 1095/6, which was approx 22/23 years before the Templars were formed. Are you saying that they were in existance prior to 1095?
If so I would be interested in any historical evidence.
regards
bob
|
|
|
|
|
D.I.R
|
Posted 13/11/2011 21:36:01
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 13/11/2011 23:03:13
Posts: 13,
Visits: 27
|
No, I am not suggesting that they fought in the first crusade; but I did see a documentary a short while ago on the part that the Templar's played in Richard the Lionheart's crusades.
I am not able to comment on its historical accuracy.
S&F
Leo
Correct me if I''m wrong.
|
|
|
|