Lay-Brother ???

Firstly I must confirm what others have said that in UGLE once you have taken your obligation in the First Degree you are a Mason and a Full member of your Lodge. If there is a Ballot on the night of your Initiation after you are Obligated you are entitled to Vote. David has said that he can attend business meetings and what we don't know is whether these are Regular Lodge Meetings (or even Emergency Meetings) as defined by the BoC or whether they are Committee meetings. If they are Regular meetings then he would be entitled to vote. Nowhere in the BoC does it refer to a "Lay " member (although there is a Serving Brother). If the Business Meetings are Committee meetings then in most cases the membership of the Lodge Committee or General Purposes Committee is restricted usally to make it more manageable, in which case if he did not fulfill the criteria for membership then he would not be able to vote, however it must be remembered that, despite what some senior members of the Lodge may think, these committees are only advisory and have no authority other than to guide the WM. It may surprise some brethren to know that Freemasonry is democratic the problem is that we do not often exercise the democratic process or perhaps we do by allowing it to continue because we are happy with the way that it works.
As an aside in a Lodge where I was a founder we decided that every member regardless of rank would be a member of the Lodge Committee. It works well and every one has a chance to air their views and to vote.

James

Author	Message
Mike Martin	Posted 17/08/2010 00:25:53
Apprentice Group: Administrator Last Active: 35 minutes ago Posts: 2,556, Visits: 12,994 12,954	I am re-posting the comment below as it is something that I have not come across and I hope that the OP has just misunderstood what was said to him. I am sure that more experienced Forumites may wish to air their views: David (14/08/2010) I am a MM in a Lodge which meets in Brighton and have been told that I may attend business meetings but not vote. Apparently I am only a "lay brother"! As to the comment earlier "Some are more equal than others is an acceptance that the system is wrong." - I couldn't agree more. This is just the sort of thing that these days people simply will not tolerate, along with being told to be patient. I am away from home at the moment and asked for a copy of the Bylaws several weeks ago to no avail! Mike Mersey Lodge No. 5434 Website The Freemasons'''' Grand Charity Website See my BALLS here
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Mike Martin	Posted 17/08/2010 01:20:40
Apprentice Group: Administrator Last Active: 35 minutes ago Posts: 2,556, Visits: 12,994 12,954	Trouillogan (16/08/2010) At your initiation were you not given a copy of the Lodge's by-laws along with the Book of Constitutions? If not, create a stink until you do! Some Lodges do enact in their by-laws that the General Purposes Committee comprises Past Masters as well as some specified officers (in case they are occupied by non-PMs; such as the Wardens). Some don't even allow others to attend, never mind vote! My own 3-part plan is two thirds complete - allow all to attend, then to speak, then to vote. It takes some years but it sometimes has to be done by stealth and little by little. It's called 'moving with the times' and Masonry often doesn't do that as well as it might! Mike Mersey Lodge No. 5434 Website The Freemasons'''' Grand Charity Website See my BALLS here
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BroPhil	Posted 17/08/2010 09:36:26
Fellow Group: Forum Member Last Active: 29 minutes ago Posts: 139, Visits: 921 949	Surely this is a misunderstanding. We also have a committee to oversee the financial side of our lodge to which not all members are appointed. This is not to "keep them out of the loop" but to save them extra meetings. Anyone in our lodges who wishes to be added may do so - could it be that the lodge in question simply prefers a Brother to be a member for a time before he is given a say in the long term financial running of the lodge. (This would allow him time to become accustomed with the priorities and general set up of the organisation? - In the same sense that someone joining a company as a member of staff would not be instantly entitled to a say in the company finances. Obviously I don't know the specifics but perhaps further explanation is required before jumping to an unfortunate conclusion? S&F W. Bro. Phil Saunders IPM, Northolt Lodge No 6565 1st Principal, Thames Mariner Chapter No 8628 MMM, Unattached Website https://www.facebook.com/northoltlodge
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sojourner	Posted 17/08/2010 10:19:15
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 4 minutes ago Posts: 963, Visits: 7,757 5,302	The aspect that I find "disturbing" is that Bro. David states he has been told that he is"only a lay brother". If this is correct, and not merely something that he has misheard or misunderstood, then I find that totally unacceptable. Everyone is "equal on the Square", from the longest serving, dark blue and gold bedecked old warrior to the newest laid stone. There is no such thing as a "lay brother". What arrogant and pretentious tosh. At his initiation he should have been provided with a Book of Constitutions and a copy of the Lodge bye-laws. It is even specifically stated as part of the ritual.."both of which I recommend to your serious perusal, as by the one....etc". Roy L. "SELUME PROFERRE"
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JamesB	Posted 17/08/2010 14:15:07
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Active: 16 minutes ago Posts: 59, Visits: 1,394 467	Firstly I must confirm what others have said that in UGLE once you have taken your obligation in the First Degree you are a Mason and a Full member of your Lodge. If there is a Ballot on the night of your Initiation after you are Obligated you are entitled to Vote. David has said that he can attend business meetings and what we don't know is whether these are Regular Lodge Meetings (or even Emergency Meetings) as defined by the BoC or whether they are Committee meetings. If they are Regular meetings then he would be entitled to vote. Nowhere in the BoC does it refer to a "Lay " member (although there is a Serving Brother). If the Business Meetings are Committee meetings then in most cases the membership of the Lodge Committee or General Purposes Committee is restricted usally to make it more manageable, in which case if he did not fulfill the criteria for membership then he would not be able to vote, however it must be remembered that, despite what some senior members of the Lodge may think, these committees are only advisory and have no authority other than to guide the WM. It may surprise some brethren to know that Freemasonry is democratic the problem is that we do not often exercise the democratic process or perhaps we do by allowing it to continue because we are happy with the way that it works. As an aside in a Lodge where I was a founder we decided that every member regardless of rank would be a member of the Lodge Committee. It works well and every one has a chance to air their views and to vote. James
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chestnut	Posted 17/08/2010 14:21:01
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 41 minutes ago Posts: 1,139, Visits: 5,925 4,508	The term Lay Brother I have heard and used myself to differentiate between those who have passed through KS chair and those who have not. It is not derogatory in any way and does not belittle any membership. It is just a statement of fact. However all Brethren should be entitled to attend GP meetings and vote on aspects which involve their membership and their money. David
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sojourner	Posted 17/08/2010 17:19:13
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: 4 minutes ago Posts: 963, Visits: 7,757 5,302	I have never heard the term "lay brother" used in the Masonry I have experienced. Having heard its alleged use on this Forum, if correctly inferred, it was apparently used as a way of insinuating that some "Brethren are less than other Brethren". A way of differentiating between those who have passed through the Chair? I have always used the term P.M.'s and non P.M.'s. I have not come across the use of this term before and I can't say that it is one I like, however benignly it may be intended. I also don't like the terms "junior" or "senior Brethren", which I have heard used (usually asking the "former" to stay behind and clear the Lodge after a meeting, while the "latter" scuttle off to the bar). In my Mother Lodge the "Lodge Committee" was made up of the Lodge P.M.'s and the the S.W. (if he wasn't a recycled P.M.), who was in line to become Master elect. In the Lodges and Orders i am in in Scotland, all M.M's are automatically members of the Lodge Committee. All members are welcome (and indeed encouraged) to attend the meetings. After all it is their Lodge and the discussions and decisions reached, affect them. On the minus side the minutes of Committee meetings are laboriously read out at the following Lodge meeting, which I personally consider tedious and unnecessary. Roy L. "SELUME PROFERRE"
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bod	Posted 18/08/2010 14:56:56
Journeyman Group: Forum Member Last Active: 8 minutes ago Posts: 749, Visits: 3,210 3,130	This is from memory and isn't verbatim, I believe that our lodge constitution requires that at least two 'lay brothers' i.e. not PM's must be appointed to the lodge comittee, their role is to represent the 'junior bretheren' at committee meetings, they do have the right to vote in the meetings
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Eldmar	Posted 18/08/2010 16:02:13
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Active: 04/06/2011 19:29:44 Posts: 74, Visits: 389 284	In my Lodge all Lodge officers (except stewards) are members of the Lodge Committee, which is usually chaired by the WM, but sometimes the Secretary if the WM can't make it for some reason. All have equal rights to vote and are actively encouraged to say their part. In fact when I fist started going I kept pretty quiet, almost in awe at being there and part of it, until in the end one of the more experienced members told me to speak up and not worry as there were no 'airs and graces' at the meetings and we all had opinions about what was for the best of the Lodge. On general matters such as new members ballots, electing the new WM etc all Lodge members get a vote in open Lodge, the Committee seems to be more to do with the run of the mill background stuff like organising the menus, setting extra practice nights for the officers or planning the next several Lodge nights in advance. So to keep it simple and straight forward only the Lodge officers are on the committee as they are the ones that will be doing the ceremonies. At the end of our Lodge meetings the call is for all the more able bodied to remain to help tidy up and while this is usually the younger and therefore more junior members, there are a fair few of the older members that stay behind to help, on several occasions I have seen a couple of different WM's over the years wandering from the Lodge to the storeroom with an armful of stuff to be put away. Best wishes Eldmar. Pontypridd Lodge 9001. Caerleon college, 72, Brangwyn college 75, SRIA. Dunraven Lodge MMM 950, Dunraven RAM Lodge 950. Ystradyfodwg Chapter 7638. Merthyr Tydfil Council N0 120 R&SM
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bod	Posted 18/08/2010 16:14:58
Journeyman Group: Forum Member Last Active: 8 minutes ago Posts: 749, Visits: 3,210 3,130	Good point Eldmar, I had forgotten that all lodge officers are committee members, the lay bretheren are drawn from the Stewards bench in my lodge too
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Lay-Brother ???

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