|
bowman
|
Posted 14/07/2010 08:06:31
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 11/10/2011 16:20:38
Posts: 71,
Visits: 614
|
All,
something lauderdale said in another thread I'd like to ask for clarification on... This excerpt is referring to female masons:
"... enjoy all the same rights and undergo the same ritual procedures etc as any male member thereof. No concessions are made to their gender ..."
Huh. Okaaay...
Now, please don't take me the wrong way, but ceremonies require that you bare some parts of your body - dare I ask how that is handled, or am I in the wrong order? :w00t:
Also, seeing as these processes were - at least in part - meant to ascertain that the man joining was actually a "man" (sex-wise), doesn't it feel a bit - well, odd?
(For the record, I have nothing against female or co-masonry, I'm geniunely curious.)
---
Bro. Bowman
SW, St. Stephens No.7, Budapest (Hungary)
Cockfosters Chapter No.1, Budapest (Hungary)
Mark Masters Lodge New Quarries No.1903, Vienna (Austria)
Steward, RAM New Shores No.1903 (Austria)
Dialogus lodge No.1, Ljubljana (Slovenia)
|
|
|
|
|
bod
|
Posted 14/07/2010 08:25:47
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 24 minutes ago
Posts: 749,
Visits: 3,209
|
There's only really one part of one ceremony where what you suggest would be an issue, and my understanding is that the relevant body part is figuratively bared rather than literally, i.e. the shirt/blouse is open but there is a t-shirt or similar covering in place
I'm sure Lauderdale or Cora will be able to answer more definitively
|
|
|
|
|
bowman
|
Posted 14/07/2010 08:56:22
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 11/10/2011 16:20:38
Posts: 71,
Visits: 614
|
bod (14/07/2010)
There's only really one part of one ceremony where what you suggest would be an issue, and my understanding is that the relevant body part is figuratively bared rather than literally, i.e. the shirt/blouse is open but there is a t-shirt or similar covering in place
I'm sure Lauderdale or Cora will be able to answer more definitively
Agreed - but there's one part in every ceremony.
And, "...no concessions are made..." and "...figuratively bared rather than literally..." aren't quite the same thing, are they? :D
---
Bro. Bowman
SW, St. Stephens No.7, Budapest (Hungary)
Cockfosters Chapter No.1, Budapest (Hungary)
Mark Masters Lodge New Quarries No.1903, Vienna (Austria)
Steward, RAM New Shores No.1903 (Austria)
Dialogus lodge No.1, Ljubljana (Slovenia)
|
|
|
|
|
whistler
|
Posted 14/07/2010 10:47:13
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 2 days ago @ 06:18:23
Posts: 131,
Visits: 1,122
|
I can understand your concern but it is quite simple during the initiation all members of our lodge wear a White Gown (Both Men and Women) the gown has tapes so various parts of the body can be bared according to the demands of the ritual - If you a concerned about bare bosoms being exposed - sorry it just doesn't happen - look at a ladies summer dress a lot can be bared before you get to the rude bits...
In our Lodges our ritual does not seek to prove gender -
I might add that I have seen many a Man with a chest deserving a Bra:)
HGW
Whistler
Eastern order of International Co-freemasonry
Auckland New Zealand
"Truth
All truths are Truths of Period and not truths for eternity.
What has been truth for the time was and is as good as men are
capable of receiving
|
|
|
|
|
bowman
|
Posted 14/07/2010 11:06:31
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 11/10/2011 16:20:38
Posts: 71,
Visits: 614
|
whistler (14/07/2010)
I can understand your concern but it is quite simple during the initiation all members of our lodge wear a White Gown (Both Men and Women) the gown has tapes so various parts of the body can be bared according to the demands of the ritual - If you a concerned about bare bosoms being exposed - sorry it just doesn't happen - look at a ladies summer dress a lot can be bared before you get to the rude bits...
In our Lodges our ritual does not seek to prove gender -
I might add that I have seen many a Man with a chest deserving a Bra:)
Heh, I'm not concerned :) I just find it interesting that "no concessions" isn't quite "NO" concessions :)
And trust me, I'm a definite A cup :D
---
Bro. Bowman
SW, St. Stephens No.7, Budapest (Hungary)
Cockfosters Chapter No.1, Budapest (Hungary)
Mark Masters Lodge New Quarries No.1903, Vienna (Austria)
Steward, RAM New Shores No.1903 (Austria)
Dialogus lodge No.1, Ljubljana (Slovenia)
|
|
|
|
|
bod
|
Posted 14/07/2010 12:03:08
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 24 minutes ago
Posts: 749,
Visits: 3,209
|
bowman (14/07/2010)
Heh, I'm not concerned :) I just find it interesting that "no concessions" isn't quite "NO" concessions :)
And trust me, I'm a definite A cup :D
So what exactly is your point?
Also, unless your ritual is radically different from ours there is only one part in one ceremony where the chest is exposed, which seems to be your main concern
|
|
|
|
|
bowman
|
Posted 14/07/2010 12:32:33
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 11/10/2011 16:20:38
Posts: 71,
Visits: 614
|
bod (14/07/2010)
bowman (14/07/2010)
Heh, I'm not concerned :) I just find it interesting that "no concessions" isn't quite "NO" concessions :)
And trust me, I'm a definite A cup :D
So what exactly is your point?
Also, unless your ritual is radically different from ours there is only one part in one ceremony where the chest is exposed, which seems to be your main concern
Calm brother, calm :) I'm not attacking anyone or anything, I just find it interesting.
As to your question, there is no point, and we can lock and throw away this discussion now if anyone wants to, but, I am curious as to how you get around the "naked chest" bits in a mixed/female lodge.
As I expect that the "no concessions" part from lauderdale was a bit of an overstatement, I am curious to know what concessions are actually made when a woman is taking her degrees, or would a mixed-lodge ritual by default take out all the parts that would be embarrassing?
---
Bro. Bowman
SW, St. Stephens No.7, Budapest (Hungary)
Cockfosters Chapter No.1, Budapest (Hungary)
Mark Masters Lodge New Quarries No.1903, Vienna (Austria)
Steward, RAM New Shores No.1903 (Austria)
Dialogus lodge No.1, Ljubljana (Slovenia)
|
|
|
|
|
Cora B
|
Posted 14/07/2010 12:46:20
|
|
Group: On Warning
Last Active: 22/03/2011 14:46:10
Posts: 418,
Visits: 1,071
|
It's really simple - enough is bared for the appropriate implement to make proper contact with the appropriate body part. No more than a decent V-neck would expose.Bare in mind that we have no need to prove that the candidate is not a woman. S&F,
Cora
--
International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain",
British Federation
Lodge Light of Amen-Ra No. 717, Orient of Surbiton
Lodge St Francis No. 817, Orient of Camberley
Mark Lodge Nephthys No. 32, Quarries of Surbiton
HRA Triangle The Hidden Glory, Vault of Surbiton
|
|
|
|
|
Leo
|
Posted 14/07/2010 13:14:55
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 14/06/2011 10:29:35
Posts: 42,
Visits: 123
|
As already stated, in Co-Freemasonry there is no requirement to prove whether one is male or female. It isn't an issue.
Patrick 3°
***********************
|
|
|
|
|
whistler
|
Posted 14/07/2010 21:29:11
|
|
Group: Forum Member
Last Active: 2 days ago @ 06:18:23
Posts: 131,
Visits: 1,122
|
Bowman - I certainly do understand you curiosity in the first place - you are not the first person and fair enough.
To move on to no concession- that becomes a two way street.
We have always since the beginnings of Co-Freemasons had parts in our ritual that we consider essential but Malecraft Freemasons don't do. Which to us suggests that a concession is made for you not to do those parts.
Do Malecraft make a concession to our ritual by adding a requirement to see a naked Chest/man Boob - don't think so;)
Furthermore as the gown of our neophyte is worn in the same manner by both boys and girls there is no concession
Even within Malecraft you have differences - In the Royal Arch Degree some Malecraft Lodges require the passing of veils and some don't. Is that a concession - or just a difference
None of the above prevent a person of good intent becoming an excellent Freemason
HGW
Whistler
Eastern order of International Co-freemasonry
Auckland New Zealand
"Truth
All truths are Truths of Period and not truths for eternity.
What has been truth for the time was and is as good as men are
capable of receiving
|
|
|
|
