The Past Masters Jewel

chestnut (19/03/2010)

The IPM is invested by the WM with a PM jewel (square with 47th proposition) and collar with silver stripe. He may also be given by the Lodge a PM collar, jewel and breast jewel for services rendered.

So as the IPM he will wear his PM collar and as the acting IPM a PM collar as well. Therefore 2.

I think there is a little confusion about what the IPM is.

Under normal circumstances (ie not recycling PMs) the Immediate Past Master is, in reality, just the last Master of the Lodge AKA the newest Past Master of the Lodge. He has done his year in the Chair and is then Invested with a PM's (not IPM) collar and jewel because he is now a Past Master of the Lodge.

He is not an Officer and he only sits next to the new WM by virtue of the fact that his memory of the Ceremonies should be fresh enough to enable him to assist the new WM.

He does not get two collars, it is just the one and if he goes through the Chair again (as I am at the moment) he does not get another, he will continue to wear the one that he already has, even though he will once again (technically at least) be the Lodge's IPM he is already a Past Master.

The PM jewel (and sometimes his PM's Collar) will usually be engraved to commemorate his time in the Chair, as it is a present from the Lodge to a Past Master, it does not need to be worn to show his rank that is what the PM's Collar is for.

I hope this helps.

Mike

Mersey Lodge No. 5434 Website

The Freemasons'''' Grand Charity Website

See my BALLS here

Author	Message
BroDFB	Posted 19/03/2010 09:59:48
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Active: 05/01/2012 11:49:19 Posts: 92, Visits: 1,789 198	chestnut (19/03/2010) Thats the whole point,there is no difference,there cannot be as there is no such thing as an IPM collar.It does not exist. IPM is not an office so does not have a specific collar.The IPM wears whatever collar he is entitled to wear. I am afraid that is incorrect. Whilst the IPM is not an Officer of the Lodge, he is still invested with the IPM collar and jewel by the new WM during the Inner Workings. In the WM's absence then the IPM will take the Chair. The IPM wears the collar and jewel as the IPM of the Lodge he will also wear the collar of his rank, either Provincial or as a PM. Sorry, still disagree, the IPM is invested with a PMs Collar and jewel (with the line down the middle). If you have an IPM Collar and Jewel it would be interesting to know what it looks like? Dave PM & Secretary: Lodge of Triumph No. 1061 (W.Lancs) Brigantes Lodge No. 9734 (C & W) IPZ: St. Annes Chapter No. 2457 (W.Lancs) MWS: Fylde Rose Croix No. 1085 James Edward Glover RCC No. 451 "It may disturb you, It scares the willies out of me!" :D
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chestnut	Posted 19/03/2010 11:48:29
Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: Yesterday @ 13:20:40 Posts: 1,022, Visits: 5,566 1,253	BroDFB (19/03/2010) chestnut (19/03/2010) Thats the whole point,there is no difference,there cannot be as there is no such thing as an IPM collar.It does not exist. IPM is not an office so does not have a specific collar.The IPM wears whatever collar he is entitled to wear. I am afraid that is incorrect. Whilst the IPM is not an Officer of the Lodge, he is still invested with the IPM collar and jewel by the new WM during the Inner Workings. In the WM's absence then the IPM will take the Chair. The IPM wears the collar and jewel as the IPM of the Lodge he will also wear the collar of his rank, either Provincial or as a PM. Sorry, still disagree, the IPM is invested with a PMs Collar and jewel (with the line down the middle). If you have an IPM Collar and Jewel it would be interesting to know what it looks like? Dave lets clarify this for we are both saying the same thing. The IPM is invested by the WM with a PM jewel (square with 47th proposition) and collar with silver stripe. He may also be given by the Lodge a PM collar, jewel and breast jewel for services rendered. So as a new IPM he will wear his PM collar and as the acting IPM a PM collar as well. Therefore 2. Any Provincial or Grand Officer who acts as IPM will wear the Collar and jewel of his rank under GL and the IPM collar, which is to all intense and purposes a PM collar, of the Lodge. The only difference I can see is where in the Inner Workings the IPM is invested with his own Collar and jewel and the Lodge does not have an IPM collar as such for the acting IPM to wear. I have never seen this done. David
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gsudron	Posted 19/03/2010 16:34:18
Journeyman Group: Forum Member Last Active: Yesterday @ 22:28:10 Posts: 107, Visits: 4,945 231	chestnut (19/03/2010) So as a new IPM he will wear his PM collar and as the acting IPM a PM collar as well. Therefore 2. Sorry but I must be being a bit thick here. Your IPM wears 2 PMs collar and jewels. Both light blue with silver stripe and the 47th prop jewel. Why? In my experience the lodge has either presented the IPM with his collar and jewel to keep or the 'incoming' IPM provides his own. Either way, he is invested with it at the appropriate time in the inner workings...... Guy 7786, 9263, 8859 UGLE 946 GL-BFG 6664, 9263 RAC 54 MMM, 54 RAM 246 OSM 47 Scarlet Cord 168 RCC 1096 AaAR ROoS PGL Beds & Northants, S Counties 185 AMD 226 R&SM
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Mike Martin	Posted 19/03/2010 17:50:46
Past Master Group: Administrator Last Active: 2 hours ago Posts: 2,322, Visits: 11,823 2,785	chestnut (19/03/2010) The IPM is invested by the WM with a PM jewel (square with 47th proposition) and collar with silver stripe. He may also be given by the Lodge a PM collar, jewel and breast jewel for services rendered. So as the IPM he will wear his PM collar and as the acting IPM a PM collar as well. Therefore 2. I think there is a little confusion about what the IPM is. Under normal circumstances (ie not recycling PMs) the Immediate Past Master is, in reality, just the last Master of the Lodge AKA the newest Past Master of the Lodge. He has done his year in the Chair and is then Invested with a PM's (not IPM) collar and jewel because he is now a Past Master of the Lodge. He is not an Officer and he only sits next to the new WM by virtue of the fact that his memory of the Ceremonies should be fresh enough to enable him to assist the new WM. He does not get two collars, it is just the one and if he goes through the Chair again (as I am at the moment) he does not get another, he will continue to wear the one that he already has, even though he will once again (technically at least) be the Lodge's IPM he is already a Past Master. The PM jewel (and sometimes his PM's Collar) will usually be engraved to commemorate his time in the Chair, as it is a present from the Lodge to a Past Master, it does not need to be worn to show his rank that is what the PM's Collar is for. I hope this helps. Mike Mersey Lodge No. 5434 Website The Freemasons'''' Grand Charity Website See my BALLS here
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chestnut	Posted 19/03/2010 18:15:49
Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: Yesterday @ 13:20:40 Posts: 1,022, Visits: 5,566 1,253	Sorry Mike that is incorrect. ALL Lodges that I have visited and believe me I have visited many, have an IPM collar which is in effect a PM collar. The IPM is invested with this at Installation. He is also given an engraved PM collar for his own keeping. Therefore the IPM will wear his own PM collar and the collar of a PM as the IPM. 2 collars. If any other Brother acts as IPM he wears the Lodge PM Collar and jewel to indicate he is acting as an IPM and his collar and jewel according to his rank under GL. No confusion here. David
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gsudron	Posted 19/03/2010 18:31:50
Journeyman Group: Forum Member Last Active: Yesterday @ 22:28:10 Posts: 107, Visits: 4,945 231	chestnut (19/03/2010) ALL Lodges that I have visited and believe me I have visited many, have an IPM collar which is in effect a PM collar. The IPM is invested with this at Installation. He is also given an engraved PM collar for his own keeping. Therefore the IPM will wear his own PM collar and the collar of a PM as the IPM. 2 collars. That is interesting - I have come across a collar owned by the lodge which is worn by the IPM for his year but I've never seen an IPM wear 2 PMs collars. You live and learn..... Guy 7786, 9263, 8859 UGLE 946 GL-BFG 6664, 9263 RAC 54 MMM, 54 RAM 246 OSM 47 Scarlet Cord 168 RCC 1096 AaAR ROoS PGL Beds & Northants, S Counties 185 AMD 226 R&SM
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Mike Martin	Posted 19/03/2010 18:50:54
Past Master Group: Administrator Last Active: 2 hours ago Posts: 2,322, Visits: 11,823 2,785	chestnut (19/03/2010) Sorry Mike that is incorrect. No confusion here. OK fair enough, not something that I've come across and I've visited one or two Lodges as well. As I always say "vive le difference"! Mike Mersey Lodge No. 5434 Website The Freemasons'''' Grand Charity Website See my BALLS here
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chestnut	Posted 19/03/2010 19:00:18
Master Group: Forum Member Last Active: Yesterday @ 13:20:40 Posts: 1,022, Visits: 5,566 1,253	So no London or Kent Lodges that you have visited have a collar and jewel for the IPM to wear? I can not believe that in Essex we are so different. Maybe interpretation is the difference. The London Lodges I have visited have had such a collar. David
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Mike Martin	Posted 19/03/2010 19:07:19
Past Master Group: Administrator Last Active: 2 hours ago Posts: 2,322, Visits: 11,823 2,785	chestnut (19/03/2010) So no London or Kent Lodges that you have visited have a collar and jewel for the IPM to wear? I can not believe that in Essex we are so different. Maybe interpretation is the difference. The London Lodges I have visited have had such a collar. I can honestly say that I have never noticed any IPM wearing two PM collars but I shall defo start looking for it. Mike Mersey Lodge No. 5434 Website The Freemasons'''' Grand Charity Website See my BALLS here
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Bob Butler	Posted 19/03/2010 19:44:49
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Active: 28/01/2012 21:09:10 Posts: 78, Visits: 224 118	I have not seen the wearing of two collars in the ipm chair either in fact in my lodge as the master from last year who was also a pm before went straight to dc so another pm sits next to the master to assist and wears his prov dark blue collar dont know if this is right or wrong but thats what we do
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