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Mike Martin
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Posted 18/12/2009 14:13:11
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Vintagemalt
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Posted 18/12/2009 14:54:22
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Alan Campbell (17/12/2009)
I think it does matter what the history is and where our forefathers came from and how the whole order started. But i must also say that it will not affect how i feel about the craft if we find out at some point in the future that it was four guys in a pub who made the whole thing up. The ideals and teachings still count as much today as they did then.It wouldn't have been four would it Alan ? Surely five or maybe seven - but never four! Vm :)
Stephen 
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yorksmason
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Posted 18/12/2009 16:53:56
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Vintagemalt (18/12/2009)
Alan Campbell (17/12/2009)
I think it does matter what the history is and where our forefathers came from and how the whole order started. But i must also say that it will not affect how i feel about the craft if we find out at some point in the future that it was four guys in a pub who made the whole thing up. The ideals and teachings still count as much today as they did then.
It wouldn't have been four would it Alan ?Surely five or maybe seven - but never four!
Vm :)
Four brothers and forefathers,that makes 8,enough for a lodge.
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Fire Mist
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Posted 18/12/2009 18:41:25
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Alan Campbell (17/12/2009)
I think its quite simple to understand bod, Ugle were the first grand lodges and they set down what modern freemasonry should be from the ancient charges. Therefor if you don't work to those guidelines then you don't get into the clubhouse. so to speak. So firemist was stating that as regularity is such a contentious issue among some then does it really matter what they say, and she believes that it doesn't matter to her but it it might matter to others. Quite correct. And thank you for clearing up the possible misunderstanding. Being involved with living history, I think history is very vasinating. I also think one can learn a lot from history. I wonder how my experience with history in gereral (though my interest is actually general, not specific) colors my opinion of the history of the Craft. Thanks all. It is always comforting to hear other's comments and opinions. I'm listening.
If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarnatee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors --Carl SchurzDarylee, 3°; (I am a women in Ohio, USA) Columbus,OH ; (Renaissance Lodge #5, Orient of Detroit)My posts are my personal opinions. The Opinions expressed herein don't represent the opinions of my Lodge, Grandlodge or any other Masonic jurisdiction. American Co-Masonry; The American Federation of Human Rights: http://www.co-masonry.org/
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Fire Mist
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Posted 18/12/2009 18:43:05
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yorksmason (18/12/2009)
Four brothers and forefathers,that makes 8,enough for a lodge. Perhaps one went to make tea?
If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarnatee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors --Carl SchurzDarylee, 3°; (I am a women in Ohio, USA) Columbus,OH ; (Renaissance Lodge #5, Orient of Detroit)My posts are my personal opinions. The Opinions expressed herein don't represent the opinions of my Lodge, Grandlodge or any other Masonic jurisdiction. American Co-Masonry; The American Federation of Human Rights: http://www.co-masonry.org/
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bod
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Posted 18/12/2009 19:07:39
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Fire Mist (18/12/2009)
Alan Campbell (17/12/2009)
I think its quite simple to understand bod, Ugle were the first grand lodges and they set down what modern freemasonry should be from the ancient charges. Therefor if you don't work to those guidelines then you don't get into the clubhouse. so to speak.
So firemist was stating that as regularity is such a contentious issue among some then does it really matter what they say, and she believes that it doesn't matter to her but it it might matter to others.
Quite correct. And thank you for clearing up the possible misunderstanding.
Being involved with living history, I think history is very vasinating. I also think one can learn a lot from history. I wonder how my experience with history in gereral (though my interest is actually general, not specific) colors my opinion of the history of the Craft.
Thanks all. It is always comforting to hear other's comments and opinions. I'm listening.
Alan's assumption on your motivation may be correct but the first part of his statement is incorrect.
UGLE did not set down a set of rules and say 'If you don't meet these rules you aren't coming in' - every single GL is free to determine what the landmarks are for themselves, as they are equally free to recognise or not recognise other GL's as they see fit. It has nothing to do with UGLE
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Alan Campbell
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Posted 19/12/2009 10:56:35
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Bod, i'm going to use sport as an analogy here, What is football? Some say it is the game played in the uk, some that it is rugby football, as in rugby league and still others that it is the American version. What matters most is that we all understand the different concepts of the different games.As for freemasonry. The antients, to me, were the first and they got together and started a grand lodge, and yes i do know of lodges that were not interested in joining the 4 main grand lodges at the time. Melrose and mother kilwinning were 2 lodges in Scotland which just kept working away as they always had done, they were also classed as grand lodges in there own right as they fulfilled all the criteria of what a grand lodge is. That aside, between them, the first four grand lodges, English antients and moderns, GLoS and GLoI, agreed to what freemasonry was and should be, no they didn't start freemasonry but out of neccessity they regulated it and in my opinion they did this to preserve what freemasonry should be. As for wether you want to follow their guidleines that is your choice but like my opening paragraph states, if you dont' then to me it is not antient pure freemasonry, it is like calling football(or soccer), rugby and rugby football. But this thread is about the history and not about the contentious issue of who works the best system of freemasonry it is about how it all began and wether it bothers you or affects you in anyway.
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bod
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Posted 21/12/2009 09:44:42
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Your latest answer shows very well why the facts of history are important, without the facts then opinion becomes the legend, and opinions change, facts don't
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Mike Martin
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Posted 21/12/2009 09:56:09
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lauderdale
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Posted 21/12/2009 10:56:32
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The problem with the Football analogy is that there are various different games which call themsleves Football. What most Brits call "Football" is actually Soccer, I have heard Rugby, which has two codes, refered to as "Rugby Football" and of course there are Australian Rules, and the American version of Football which is rather like Rugby but with Body Armour and Helmets. Followers of these could all consider their game as "Football".When refering to the various types of Freemasonry be they Co-Masonic, Women Only, Francophone, Anglo-Saxon Malecraft or whatever I prefer to use the religious analogy. In Christianity there are many Churches from Roman Catholic through to Zoar Strict Baptist, Bethel, etc. All are valid in themselves but have different Modes of Worship and Liturgies and may disagree on Dogmas and Doctrines. Some recognise the validity of the Holy Orders of others, some do not. They can even disagree on their Historicity. Some RCs for example would say that their Church takes its rise from when Christ gave the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to St Peter but other people consider the Roman Catholic Church as we now know it to have come into being at the Council of Trent 1545-64 whichwas part of the Counter-Reformation. The concept of Freemasonry goes back further than can be measured but it is of course possible to find Lodges meeting at specific dates in the past and use that as a start point if one wishes.
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