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Fire Mist
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Posted 16/12/2009 18:47:04
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I have the poll set so a person can select more than one answer.I ask the question because I'm not certain why I should care beyond the love of history in general, and part of the learning experience. Please try to change my mimd on this. History of Freemasonry. Do the facts, or the lack there of affect us personally in the here and now? I am wondering how distorted our vision of the historical facts are due to documentation.
Written documentation is scarce till the Grand lodges were set up. Prior to that, there are a few pieces.
Even after the invention of the Grand loges, seems there are different spellings/ pronounciations/ facts which were documented..... and ones which were not.
How much do we really know of the Craft that existed even immediately prior to our own personal initiations. Which leads me to wonder, is it that important?
Don't get me wrong. History in general is an interest to me. However would my finding a certain fact of the past etc. change anyting of the who what and why of what I am or what my lodge is in the now?
I suppose I am wondering this due to a conversation I had this weekend with a group of wheter Jesus Christ was married or not. An interesting subject, but I discovered that I simply don't care. It is a subject that is not of me. It is and was an interesting converstation, but it does not affect my faith at all one way or the other.
Then there are those who argue that women were at one time freemasons. operative and otherwise. To find and prove operateive female masons would help our 'cause' to become regular with UGLE. An occurance which I wuld find nice, but doesnt' change my regularity witin my own obedience.
I counter that argument with one of many examples of now gender specific rolles and how they have changed. One example is that of the cloting trades. Taylor, Lacemaker, Knitters, Sewing, Habadashery, (sp?) They were all male occupied trades till the industrial revolution. Now, I still know men who would not be caught dead with a sewing needle and thread in their hand let alone a pair of knitting needles. I also know others who enjoy embroidery and other such craft.
Times change, the human race adapts to the change. Is the history of an item necessary to initiate that chanage in an indivudual, or a group of individuals or a society?
If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarnatee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors --Carl SchurzDarylee, 3°; (I am a women in Ohio, USA) Columbus,OH ; (Renaissance Lodge #5, Orient of Detroit)My posts are my personal opinions. The Opinions expressed herein don't represent the opinions of my Lodge, Grandlodge or any other Masonic jurisdiction. American Co-Masonry; The American Federation of Human Rights: http://www.co-masonry.org/
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Russell Holland
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Posted 16/12/2009 20:17:26
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The origin of Freemasonry is closely related to its purpose. Both remain obscure until the allegories are unveiled.
Even the reputed close resemblance of the usages and customs of Freemasonry to those of ancient Egypt is insufficient to plumb the age of Freemasonry.
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Fire Mist
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Posted 17/12/2009 16:47:10
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Agreed, but the history and those items are given in the ritual.... Though I think the rest of the heistory seaking is interesting and serves to build knowledge... (most important in the 2nd deg) I'm not sure what other impact it should/should not make.Just wondering what others think. Thanks
If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarnatee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors --Carl SchurzDarylee, 3°; (I am a women in Ohio, USA) Columbus,OH ; (Renaissance Lodge #5, Orient of Detroit)My posts are my personal opinions. The Opinions expressed herein don't represent the opinions of my Lodge, Grandlodge or any other Masonic jurisdiction. American Co-Masonry; The American Federation of Human Rights: http://www.co-masonry.org/
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bod
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Posted 17/12/2009 18:14:50
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Fire Mist (16/12/2009)
Then there are those who argue that women were at one time freemasons. operative and otherwise.
To find and prove operateive female masons would help our 'cause' to become regular with UGLE.
I don't understand this sentence - why is UGLE being held up as some kind of arbiter to regularity?
Vis a vis the original question - history is important as it helps us to understand where we have come from and why we do what we do. The history of freemasonry has a recognised, traceable side to it as well as a more speculative side. How much does it matter to us as individual masons? Not a lot - our actions and behaviour matters so much more.
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lauderdale
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Posted 17/12/2009 18:27:02
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It really doesn't matter. My own take is from Ancient Egypt, to Israel and the various Temples in Jerusalem, lost then found by the original KTs who excavated the Temple and thence hidden in Freemasonry when the Templars were persecuted and had to flee, some to Scotland others to what they called La Merica. Other people would look for a more prosaic history yet others still would go further back and even look to origins not of this Earth in Orion or Sirius. You pays your money.... as they say.
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Alan Campbell
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Posted 17/12/2009 18:58:04
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bod (17/12/2009)
Fire Mist (16/12/2009)
Then there are those who argue that women were at one time freemasons. operative and otherwise. To find and prove operateive female masons would help our 'cause' to become regular with UGLE.
I don't understand this sentence - why is UGLE being held up as some kind of arbiter to regularity? Vis a vis the original question - history is important as it helps us to understand where we have come from and why we do what we do. The history of freemasonry has a recognised, traceable side to it as well as a more speculative side. How much does it matter to us as individual masons? Not a lot - our actions and behaviour matters so much more. I think its quite simple to understand bod, Ugle were the first grand lodges and they set down what modern freemasonry should be from the ancient charges. Therefor if you don't work to those guidelines then you don't get into the clubhouse. so to speak. So firemist was stating that as regularity is such a contentious issue among some then does it really matter what they say, and she believes that it doesn't matter to her but it it might matter to others.
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Alan Campbell
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Posted 17/12/2009 19:00:39
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I think it does matter what the history is and where our forefathers came from and how the whole order started. But i must also say that it will not affect how i feel about the craft if we find out at some point in the future that it was four guys in a pub who made the whole thing up. The ideals and teachings still count as much today as they did then.
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Russell Holland
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Posted 18/12/2009 04:06:28
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Lauderdale (17/12/2009) from Ancient Egypt, to Israel and the various Temples in Jerusalem, lost then found by the original KTs who excavated the Temple
Since ancient Egypt (& Sumer) appeared suddenly - from an unknown source - it is likely that Freemasonry did the same.
As for being lost, it was indeed fortunate that the KT knew where to excavate in a rather large rock. Perhaps the material was not so much lost as stored secretly.
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lauderdale
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Posted 18/12/2009 11:24:59
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Yes quite possibly Bro Russsell. Concealed in a way that woudl mean that those who possessed and understood the requiste knowledge would be able to find them.
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bod
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Posted 18/12/2009 12:11:05
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Alan Campbell (17/12/2009)
I think its quite simple to understand bod, Ugle were the first grand lodges and they set down what modern freemasonry should be from the ancient charges. Therefor if you don't work to those guidelines then you don't get into the clubhouse. so to speak.
I understand all that Alan - even tho it is incorrect.
People seem to think that UGLE is some kind of masonic policeman - they have repeatedly stated they aren't. There is also an oft repeated fallacy that UGLE decide which GL's are regular for the 'masonic world at large'. This isn't correct, each GL decides who they recognise and who is regular according to their own rules.
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