I am hoping someone can shed some light on this for me.  I have read in a few books, I believe Born in Blood was one, that there was no Operative Stone Masons guild in existance and therfore Speculative Freemasonry could not have its origins in the "Guilds".

I have however never seen any evidence for or against this - can anyone prove that there was a Stone Masons Guild? Or actually disprove it?

S&F

Mark

S&F
Mark

"England disclosed no evidence that any medieval guilds of stonemasons had existed there"

But then I suppose if we take the idea that Freemasonry was born in Scotland this negates his argument.

Mark

S&F
Mark

Page 59:

[quote] We can see why the freemasons did not, and could not, come together in the earliest medieval times in guilds, as did the mercers, ironmongers, fishmongers, clockmakers, dyers, stationers, etc., etc. In the early medieval period no small town could find work in support of a sufficient number of masons to make a guild possible, but there was a still greater difficulty. Masons were not small masters with servant organization; on the contrary, taken as a whole, they were men of a scattered trade, and this trade could arrive at maturity only after the other trades had become prosperous and produced the riches which the King, his nobles, and the Church could spend on building in stone, chiefly by the direct employment of the masons, who worked for wages and only exceptionally for profit. In course of time the masons had their own London organization, as already stated, but it is doubtful whether any other town in Englandowned a closely corresponding body, although a few of them had social and religious bodies to which the name of guild was sometimes applied (see P. 70). So it will be understood that when in this book 'guilds' are mentioned, reference is being made to the many general guilds in whose customs and usages all freemasons must be profoundly interested, and more particularly the London Company of Masons and Freemasons. Freemasonry is fortunate in the fact that. there grew up in England, instead of small guilds of purely local authority, a nation wide fraternity of operative masons, as to which the earliest of the old manuscript Charges bears witness. [/quote]

It is not the same as the ritual we are used to, but you can see where it is connected.

Bill McElligott
http://www.lodgeroomuk.com/forumphpBB/

We have the Regius MS dated about 1390 which alludes to masons.

The Cooke MS dated about 1450 which does the same and is said to allude in places to Ranulf Higdons Polycronicon written 100 years before.

Neither of these MS would have been written for any other reason than for a masons group.

Edward IV, 1461-1483, granted the Society of Masons, a Coat of Arms, indicating there must have been some organisation.

I however, have always suspected the theory that masons signs were used originally to identify the level of competence of the prospective employee applying for a job in an unknown area purely on the grounds of a lack of a country wide organisation.

However, the principles of both the Norman and Gothic cathedrals were not invented by itinerant stone mason that happened upon them by chance.

There must be little doubt that medieval architects would have been educated at a great seat of learning, where the applied principles of their trade would have been taught. 

News also would have been spread by travelers that these massive religious structures that were greater that anything seen before were being erected in cities and educated architects would have visited these cities to learn and no doubt would have communed with the architects and masters to exchange information. 

So yes, I would agree that they my not have been country wide affiliated guilds communicating their science on a daily basis.

But in each major city all trades were regulated, masons were no exception to that and that was the start of the great british tradesman who jealously guarded his trade secrets, right down to our life times when we have seen the apprentiships and trades diminish so that a Glazier will be a Carpenter will be a Builder will be a Gardener etc.  Many trades are no longer defined.

If you bring in the scottish question, now thats another totally different ball game.

Many thanks for your replies it is most iluminating I will definately read up as you said Mike!

Another question if I may, what do you think prompted an operative guild to become speculative? What would attract speculatives to an operative lodge?

You do not for example find speculative pilot guilds or a tailors guild do you? Although I have heard of the "Free Gardeners".

S&F

Mark

S&F
Mark

Have a look here (this is only the ones that are now Livery Companies): http://81.130.213.163:8002/cgi-bin/lcl.exe

Have a look here (this is only the ones that are now Livery Companies): http://81.130.213.163:8002/cgi-bin/lcl.exe[/quote]

So not many left then.....................

Which one to join?????????

__________________________________________

U.G.L.E.

Lodge of Three Grand Principles 441 (Cambridge)
Chapter of Fidelity 441
Norwich Conclave 478 OSM

I've seen Mike's Balls.....