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Alan Campbell
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Posted 06/10/2009 18:17:28
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Dear DHS, Maybe your lodge asks the question of whether the gentleman is a member of the ORange order but most lodges that i know do not. I do know a lot of members who are in both, some of which are very good friends. Of these i must stress that i don't know any who attend both at the same time but there dues in both orders are up to date and they are members of both. They tend to pick one or the other after joining but i must stress i agree that the 2 orders are totally seperate entities but there is always going to be cross over in the west of Scotland, especially in what was once mining villages. In my mother lodge in Larkhall at least 50% were in both.
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eric384
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Posted 06/10/2009 19:25:01
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DHS (05/10/2009)
Lauderdale (05/10/2009)
Alas there are some countries such as Scotland, the Greater Glasgow area especially, where being a Mason is often confused or conflated with being an Orangeman. We know that the two are not connected although there are quite a few Scotsmen who are members of both organisations. Alas this is where "Received Wisdom" cuts in and it is very difficult to disabuse someone of information received at their mother's knee.
Sorry, Steve but I must challenge this (again). The last thread on this subject failed to identify anyone - at least on these forums - who was a current member of both. If you personally know of any individual or individuals who are then please state so unequivocally, otherwise you are simply adding the weight of your own esteem to the "Received Wisdom" which you also acknowledge. Or in my words the bastard offspring of an apocryphal tale and an axe to grind.
We had an Enquiry Committee meeting last week and both potential candidates were asked directly if they were members of the Orange Lodge. Thankfully neither was but given that there have been more Orange Parades in Glasgow than in Belfast over the last 12 months I think it is important for us to continually reassert that Freemasonry and traditional Orangeism are completely seperate. Otherwise we run the risk of failure as an all-inclusive organisation.
If you have read the threads regarding Orange membership, there is at least one fairly regular poster who has inferred that he is a member.
But, to your enquiry committee. Why ask such a question? The Orange Order is not a proscribed organisation under GLoS. What would you do if someone who was not in the Orange when initiated, subsequently joined them?
Eric
ps I'm not in the Orange Order and have no leanings towards them.
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Mike Martin
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Posted 07/10/2009 00:18:18
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Alan Campbell
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Posted 07/10/2009 10:49:25
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Mike, i agree it has nothing to do with this topic as far as Father Tims article is concerned but in Scotland and N.Ireland it has always been a natural thing for the Orange order to be associated with freemasonry by Catholic community. Even my Mother in law was aghast when she found out that i was in the craft because apparently all freemasons hate catholics(according to the way she had been brought up, she no longer holds this opinion). So any comments or threads about freemasonry by a catholic preist will have a natural tendency to head in that direction. So any time i can defend freemasonry and stress that they are not the same organisation i will do but for some to to claim that there are no members who are in both orders is just silly. Anyway like you said it is time to stop with the orange so i will not comment further on this thread.
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lauderdale
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Posted 07/10/2009 12:09:47
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"It's not Masonry, it's not Masonic"
On that Bro Mike I agree but as Bro Alan has already stated it is unfortunate but true that in the RC Community in Scotland, and possibly in Ireland, the false belief persists that the two "Lodges" are sides of the same coin. This is wrong, and indeed we used to have a Roman Catholic Celtic Supporting Mason from Glasgow who posted here and on other Masonic Fora but alas he is seldom heard from these days.
Thankfully this does not seem to be a problem here in England and I know many RCs who are On the Square.
How can we nail this myth? Alas I don't know. Open Days etc are great but unfortunately there are none so blind than those who won't hear.
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DHS
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Posted 07/10/2009 12:11:35
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Dear Alan,
I think you have picked me up wrongly at least in some respects. However I do not have an easy means to pick out the points of your own post which I think are wrong, nor do I have a means of easily identifying those elements of your posts with which I agree wholeheartedly which will not either cause further confusion or risk causing offense.
I have often considered that internet forums will always throw up language (comprehension?) barriers making it all too easy to go chasing down dead ends and/or pursuing an argument that never was - or at least never should have been.After all, even if I was an Oxford Don with English as my specialist subject, no internet forum I am aware of allows any debater the necessary use of tone coupled with body language with which to emphasise the important points, the points on which I am definite and the points on which I am unsure. That is at the root of why I attempted to disengage from this debate but you addressing me directly means that I feel obliged to respond to avoid any disharmony between us.
I have close friends in the Orange Order. I have close friends in the various masonic Orders. I do not personally know of any currently active in both and until your post in this thread had no knowledge of anyone who did. Thank you for at least satisfying that element of doubt.
In my earlier posts I alluded to the strenuous efforts of the Grand Orange Lodge's high heid yins in both Scotland and Ireland to "re-educate" their own membership that their cause is anti-Roman Catholic Church and not anti-Roman Catholic individual. I don't think any of us would pretend that this has so far been 100% successful, therefore I still believe that concurrent membership of both is incompatible. Maybe in time that will change and I am always happy to acknowledge the exception that proves the rule right now but as a statement of generality (which is all I can really offer on an internet forum) I would ask you to acknowledge that I have the right to be cautious as an individual and an obligation to be cautious as a freemason.
We ask a wide range of questions at our enquiry committee, there were certainly a few which I felt quite unprepared for at my own. At no time have I said that membership of any organisation would disqualify an individual from membership of our Lodge but we would always be keen to ensure that someone joining our lodge would be well received by the existing members and so the responses to any follow-up questions could be pivotal. Again though I find myself running out of words to fully convey the exact intent of every question and the follow-on questions which any given response may elicit. But unless an enquiry committee is convened to ascertain name, address, d.o.b., belief in a supreme being but absolutely no other personal information whatsoever then I am unsure as to where we should draw the line as far as enquiring into interests, activities and anything else which may infer character of anyone who would seek to join our fraternity.
Are there taboos for enquiry committees? Should there be? Perhaps that would be real meat for another thread but not one I am keen to be the fall guy in today :D
Dear Mike,
I hope there was enough masonic comment in there for you to view it as a worthwhile contribution to the thread. If not, please feel free to delete and I will pm Alan instead.
Regards,
David
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lauderdale
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Posted 07/10/2009 13:05:44
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"Are there taboos for enquiry committees? Should there be? Perhaps that would be real meat for another thread but not one I am keen to be the fall guy in today"
Ok Bro David, I will start a therad on this.
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