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Posted By Free State Boer 23/08/2009 08:53:31
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Mike Lawrence
 Posted 25/09/2009 12:02:16
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Hi Lew

I think when we consider this question we need to look much closer than we think.

Without a doubt, lodges of masons are recorded much earlier in Scotland than anywhere else.

Although there are lodges of masons or organized companies or guilds associated with English cathedrals and castles which also date back to the 13th-14th century.

However, the term "lodge" would suggest that you have not considered the differences in the make up of the word and to which form of masonry you are referring.

Scottish lodges evolved entirely different from English lodges and from lodges of Free and Accepted Mason, therefore your question is a little ambiguous as it stands. Perhaps you could share a little more of you own obviously well thought out ideas. 

DHS
 Posted 25/09/2009 12:56:02
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I believe that Canongate Kilwinning #2 is the oldest lodge temple in existence, older lodges having moved premises after its construction.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest - although I am not sure how we would prove it conclusively - that Glasgow Kilwinning #4 was the first ever (and therefore oldest) entirely speculative Lodge in existence.

This belief stems from the fact that, spurred on by the creation of UGLE and (presumably) a massive increase in interest in freemasonry Edinburgh Operative Lodges had started admitting non-Operatives to the craft. Meanwhile the Lodge of Glasgow St John (now #3 Bis.), which was Glasgow's most prominent Lodge, steadfastly refused to do so. A number of merchants and merchant-seafarers resident in Glasgow therefore decided to form their own Lodge for non-Operatives in 1735 and this became #4 with the formation of GLoS 2 years later.
Bibamus
 Posted 09/11/2009 13:20:26
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There is an interesting entry in the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry

http://www.encyclopediaoffreemasonry.com/a/aitchison-s-haven-lodge.html

The Year Book of the Grand Lodge of Scotland [ my latest one is only 2004 but I assume that nothing has changed ] gives both Kilwinning No 0 and Edinburgh [Mary's Chapel] No 1 and also Melrose St John No 1/2 as being " before 1598 ".

I wouldd say the " Mother Kilwinning " is usually regarded in Scotland as the oldest, but I am open to being corrected.

Tibi gratias agimus quod nihil fumas

Alan Campbell
 Posted 09/11/2009 18:26:03
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Just a wee added point, the oldest grand lodge is also in doubt as according to the secret societies act of 1799, Lodges were only allowed to continue working if they fulfilled certain criteria, and at that time, Grand lodge of Scotland, Mother Kilwinning and Melrose St John all were issuing charters and acting as grand lodges. Eventualy they all came into the fold of Grand lodge and that is why the Scottish numbering system is slightly strange.

They were all represented in court by a Col. Fullerton of Kilwinning and the government recognised them all as grand lodges in their own right.

Alan Campbell
 Posted 27/11/2009 12:13:57
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I think this topic might need to be titled, are we talking about freemasonry, speculative freemasonry or masonry as per the guilds.

With the exception of the GLoAE, all the others have what we believe to be a continuous line. even if the particular lodge is defunct, the freemasonry which it was working was recognised by the other lodges in its area.

If it is just the mention of masonry and ceremonies then the york masons i think take the title, as they were listed in the 900's.

Alan Campbell
 Posted 27/11/2009 22:55:15
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I'd really have to disagree with that Steve, as Mary's chapel recorded there first admitted speculative mason in June 1600, who was the Laird of Auchinleck. So again we have to decided, there are going to be a lot of firsts.

The first Masonic lodge, I would still say it is the york masons

The first recorded minute, Lodge Aitchesons haven in 1598

The first Lodge to admit speculative masons, lodge St Mary's chapel no.1 June 1600

The first Wholly speculative masonic lodge < this i have yet to find out but i will update the post soon.

Free State Boer
 Posted 28/11/2009 08:41:52
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I know what we will be discussing at out next lodge meeting, thanks for all the info, I have enjoyed this topic and look forward to more information wrt it.

I love Freemasonary and look forward to all my meetings.

Craft, Mark & ARK, RA, RCC, RC and KT.

FSB

ITNOTGAOTU

Alan Campbell
 Posted 28/11/2009 16:57:50
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Steve. i need to find the copy of the ashlar that i got this info from and i will get back to you. As to the first speculative mason i miss read it as i only looked at scottish lodges.
bob c
 Posted 28/11/2009 21:10:00
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Just a couple of points if I may.

The Haughfoot lodge is recorded as the first formed non operative lodge in Scotland, but I'm sure that the above is a typing error!

Auchinleck is recorded as the earliest non operative to be present at a lodge meeting in Scotland at Holyrood palace. Now whether this was a proper meeting of the lodge or as Harry Carr suggests a trial to try a John brown who was eventualy fined £40 for his trouble, who knows! 

The earlest recorded ceremonials regarding non operatives are recorded in the Lodge of Edinburgh No1's minutes dated 3rd July 1634.

Lord Alexander, Viscount Canada, eldest son of Earl of Stirling, Sir Anthony Alexander, 2nd son of Earl of Stirling,(Master Gunner to Charles I), and Sr Alexander Strachan, Bart, of Thornton, Kincardinshire, were admitted a Fellow craft without any mention of their apprenticeship.

Page ; The Lodge of Edinburgh (Mary's Chapel) No1, Quatercentenery of Minutes 1599-1999.

regards
bob

bob c
 Posted 29/11/2009 21:23:41
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I not sure there is any record of the ritual used.

I can ask one of it's members when I see him next.

Hopefully in the next 2 weeks.

regards
bob


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