Knights templar and their mariner division

Knights templar and their mariner division

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By Alan Campbell - 12/12/2008 23:31:06

Did the knights templar have a fleet of ships at their disposal, i suppose we know they did it or we wouldn't have the Arch mariner degree,Is it myth or fact that they and the vikings landed in mainland USA long before any other westerners. The rye grass which is native to that land is in the mouldings of Rosslyn Chapel and that was completed about 50 years before the said discovery. And if it is fact why do we still teach the Christopher Columbus fairytale in schools.

Are the effigies of westerners on the pyramids in Mexico and the old Inca settlements of the knights templar or some other body of western seafarers

By lauderdale - 12/12/2008 23:54:46

The KTs were like a multi-national company with a merchant fleet and banking houses in addition to their military side and this is no doubt what led to the jealousy of Philip the Fair of France and the Pope of the time and their persecution.

By bob c - 13/12/2008 08:02:53

Alan Campbell (12/12/2008)

Did the knights templar have a fleet of ships at their disposal, i suppose we know they did it or we wouldn't have the Arch mariner degree

Hi Alan,

Not sure if this is a wind up to provoke a reaction.;)

IMHO there is no connection between the Royal Ark Mariners degree and the medieval KT. In fact there is no proven link between any masonic degree and the KT.

By Alan Campbell - 13/12/2008 21:43:37

Of course it is Bob but i have to say that i have heard some brothers in the lounge after the meeting actually coming out with this type of stuff and worse still they believed what they were saying. As i have said in another thread on here no one knows the true origins of freemasonry so who is right and who is wrong.

By Lew Finnis - 13/12/2008 22:47:48

We know the KT degree was invented in the mid-18th Century. In England RAM is associated with Mark so has no link at all with KT (except that they are administered from the same place). Their association in Scotland was really an administrative convenience as well. After all, RAM is a lovely stand-alone degree.

By Russell Holland - 14/12/2008 01:34:33

>We know the KT degree was invented in the mid-18th Century.

One of the great mysteries of modern Masonry is the emergence of the 3rd degree

In the space of a few years it went from being unknown to a landmark

Are there other aspects of Masonry that have emerged or may emerge from nowhere and become landmarks?

Could Masonry veil more than is suspected?

By bob c - 14/12/2008 08:06:42

Thought so Alan,:D

While the origins of the craft are still in dispute I would argue that the formation of the craft in Scotland and that of England are 2 seperate beasts if you like.

I tend to believe that England took what had happened in Scotland and formed their own similar system.

It is true that some members believe all sorts of stories regarding our history, so each to their own I suppose.

By Lew Finnis - 14/12/2008 16:59:21

Unless anyone ever unearths early 18th century rituals, we shall probably never know where the 3rd degree came from. One theory is that it was derived from the ceremony of Acception into the Masons' Company; another that it was used when a Fellow (note, NOT Fellow Craft in England - that is a Scottish term) achieved suffuicient status to become a Master of Masons (i.e. in overall charge of the work). Yet another is that either the 1st Degree was too long, so it was split and what was the old 2nd became the 3rd or that the 2nd was too long and was split. Both of these latter ideas seem unlikely, as well into the 18th Century, many Fellows never took the 3rd Degree - and, of course, we still obligate the Master-elect in the 2nd.
Now, can someone have a good look for that missing ritual????:)

By Alan Campbell - 14/12/2008 17:20:00

and, of course, we still obligate the Master-elect in the 2nd.
quote]

Maybe in England but not in Scotland, just another one of those little differences.

I do find it interesting that the scottish craft seemed to start as operative and then turned speculative and the english craft started as speculative from the off. Maybe thats another reason why we have so many lodges working differently, as our grand lodge was brought in at a later date and UGLE seemed to be the founder of English masonry.

By lauderdale - 14/12/2008 18:28:44

"...as our grand lodge was brought in at a later date and UGLE seemed to be the founder of English masonry."

UGLE was founded in 1813 from the Union of the Antients and Modems Grand Lodges. GL of Scotland was founded in 1736 so your Grand Lodge pre-dates UGLE by some 77 years. It is true that what was to become known as the Grand Lodge of the Moderns was founded when four London Lodges met in a pub in that City to form a Grand Lodge in 1717. but they were only half of what became UGLE 96 years later.

There is one Grand Lodge which claims to be older than UGLE and which dates from the time of the Anglo-Saxon King Athelstan in York although it does not have continuity of operation.

By Lew Finnis - 14/12/2008 22:20:08

There is one Grand Lodge which claims to be older than UGLE and which dates from the time of the Anglo-Saxon King Athelstan in York although it does not have continuity of operation.

I think that must go down as the understatement of the year! This so-called Grand Lodge is a fairly recent creation by some who left UGLE, trying to use the name of a Grand Lodge which disappeared over 200 years ago - and that was after a similar revival, as it had first vanished in, I think, the 1740s.

By Alan Campbell - 14/12/2008 22:53:14

I and most on this forum,especially the ones who have been here a wee while, have heard of this grand lodge. Me personally i think the brothers who have created it(not reponed as they believe) are just a bit disilusioned with UGLE and wanted to do something to try and get in there faces. To try and repone something that hasn't existed in 200 years is just ridiculous. but i don't want to go down that road again.

By bob c - 15/12/2008 08:35:31

In Scotland we can repone lodges but there must be at least one member of the original lodge alive and willing to become part of it again.

If the same applies in England then those brethren are wearing very well. No hard paper rounds in York:D

By Compass - 17/12/2008 17:35:02

As much as you say people perpetuate stories about the masonic connections, which may be true, there are valid arguments to suggest that columbus was not the first to visit america.

Not only is there talk that the vikings had populated some of north east coast there are buildings like the newport tower mystery and the The Westford Knight to think about!

I do not believe we should dismiss these theories as readily as some people do although there is also evidence aginst the above which should not be ignored.

By Russell Holland - 22/12/2008 04:55:45

I seem to recall that when the Masonic KT emerged in England it shared head quarters with Royal Ark Mariners and used RAM as an introductory degree

What does it mean?

By lauderdale - 22/12/2008 09:11:26

Bro Russell, there are many Degrees and Orders based at Mark Masons Hall in London as well as Mark. I don't think there is any Esoteric significance in this but simply an administrative convenience.

By Russell Holland - 22/12/2008 11:13:58

Brother Lauderdale

I am not sure I made myself clear. As far as I recall, before ever RAM was attached to Mark, it emerged fully formed about the same time as KT emerged fully formed. And both KT and RAM used the same head quarters (not in London as I recall) and KT used RAM as an introductory degree before entering KT

Why was it so?

(By fully formed I mean that the governing body announced itself first - as compared with craft lodges where Grand Lodges came later)

By Lew Finnis - 22/12/2008 13:21:28

No doubt due to the involvement of Thomas Dunckerley who was a driving force in many of the degrees developed in the mid to late 18th Century. Remember that the Antients' Grand Lodge allowed their lodges to work just about any degree they wanted to under their warrant, but this ended in 1813 due to the Duke of Sussex 'sitting on' all the side degrees. Eventually separate organisations arose, with most ending up being run from MMH. I believe that RAM had to be 'purchased' from a Brother who claimed to have the sole right to the degree in England. It's all in 'The Arch and the Rainbow' by Neville Barker-Cryer but I haven't got time to dig out the reference right now.

By Russell Holland - 23/12/2008 01:50:37

Lew

Thanks. I have just requested the book from the library service.

Of course the question still remains as to whether such degrees had previous pedigrees unknown to craft Masonry. I suspect that they did.

By Terry - 23/12/2008 09:03:15

Bro Russell,

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and I tend to agree with your line of thinking,

Regards
Terry Ryan
Tamworth Australia

By Lew Finnis - 23/12/2008 12:25:39

RAM may well be quite old but we know that KT was invented in the mid 18th Century and never ever claimed to have any historical links to the medieval Knights Templar.

By Keith - 23/12/2008 21:51:38

And the "Grand Lodge" that claims to date from Athelstan in 926 couldn't have, that particular legend was disproved over a century ago. All it is is a small number of guys who fell out with UGLE and decided to adopt the name of a body which had faded out over 200 years earlier

By lauderdale - 23/12/2008 22:51:05

Mind you Bro Keith, whatever the authenticity of their provenance they do seem to be doing rather well from what I hear.

By Iain - 24/12/2008 18:17:58

[b]The rye grass which is native to that land is in the mouldings of Rosslyn Chapel and that was completed about 50 years before the said discovery. And if it is fact why do we still teach the Christopher Columbus fairytale in schools.

Are the effigies of westerners on the pyramids in Mexico and the old Inca settlements of the knights templar or some other body of western seafarers

columbus discovered America supposedly in 1492 in 1513 the Piri Reis map was discovered

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198001/piri.reis.and.the.hapgood.hypotheses.htm

This site contains some fantastic reading on the Columbus theory

Personaly I Columbus had a map he just didnt read it very well :hehe:

By Terry - 25/12/2008 00:23:48

Bro Iain,

Thanks for the link, very interesting and I enjoyed it

I agree, colombus knew where he was going, what to look for, but had no idea of what he would find

Regards

Terry Ryan
Tamworth Australia

By Russell Holland - 30/12/2008 21:45:39

I seem to recall that Columbus used a white flag (or sail) with a red patte cross - rather like a Templar flag

By lauderdale - 30/12/2008 21:54:30

It was similar but as he was funded by Spain I would assume that it was the device of the Spanish as they were not only to conquer in the name of Spain but to spread the Roman Catholic religion of which the Kings of Spain were very ardent supporters.

By bob c - 30/12/2008 22:01:30

Columbus I believe sailed under the emblem of the "Knights of Christ" which supposidly accepted several KT who were on the run after the persecution. Hence the Cross Pattee on their sails.

Whether it's true or not who knows?

By Iain - 31/12/2008 12:56:18

[Quote] "Columbus I believe sailed under the emblem of the "Knights of Christ" which supposidly accepted several KT who were on the run after the persecution. Hence the Cross Pattee on their sails". [Quote]

I dont think the Spanish ever sailed under a cross pattee, The persecution of the Templars started in 1307 Columbus set sail in 1492 185 years later at which time Spain was under the governance of Ferdinand and Isabella who established the Spanish Inquisition. It imprisoned or killed Christians who were suspected of not following the church's teachings, so the thought of Templars being aboard a spanish ship at that time let alone flying there flag is far fetched.

Removing victorian artistic lisence the flag was a green cross with the letters F on the left and Y on the right we know it was a Capitana Flag; a Spanish military term for the expedition. It was used to distinguish the ships under the command of Christopher Columbus. It was not a personal/private flag belonging to him, but a sign of the fleet under his authority. Each ship had a captain with this Flag. It could have been swallowtailed, but only oral transmission remains of the flag. The symbols it contains, (the "F" for King Fernando and the "Y" for Queen Isabel, crowned, and separated by a cross) are engraved at his burial mound in the Cathedral of Seville,

Cheers, Iain

By bob c - 31/12/2008 15:15:30

The Knights of Christ plus the order of Montesa were formed out of the disbanded KT in the early 1300's. These were the two newest monastic military orders on the Iberian penninsula,(Helen Nicholson).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03698b.htm

http://amigosdacuba.no.sapo.pt/paginas/p16-christopher_columbus.htm

Like wise it is thought that they sailed under the cross pattee with regards their ships. It is also thought that the ships used to sail to the Americas were those of the Order of Christ, albeit no templars would have been around then.

By Iain - 07/01/2009 00:19:54

I think the Templars were more declared pirates than the actuality of being pirates, The resemblance comes from I think the flying of the skull and bones which was adopted by more unsavory elements.

Then again I may be totaly wrong about this :D

By wolfy - 11/01/2009 11:24:24

Please correct me if i am wrong here as i have no knowledge of either KT or RAM.

but

http://www.eastkentfreemasons.org/OtherOrders/RoyalArkMariners.shtml

would indicate that RAM is based on the legend of Noah and the Great flood. what does this have to do with the KT degree?

By Lew Finnis - 11/01/2009 15:54:42

Blame the Scots, James! For them RAM is part of the KT series of degrees rather than an offshoot of the Mark as it is in England.

By bob c - 11/01/2009 16:53:38

Lew Finnis (11/01/2009)

Blame the Scots, James! For them RAM is part of the KT series of degrees rather than an offshoot of the Mark as it is in England.

Nope sorry!

The Ark Mariners degree is goverend by the Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland, as is the Royal and Select Masters,(cryptic council) degrees.

The second part of the Mariners are the Council Degrees of Captivity,(Red Cross degrees) which deal with Darius, etc, and not Constantine.

The only conection that the RAM had with the KT in Scotland was that it was worked with a series of degrees which came under control of the Royal Grand Conclave in the 1800's. When our SGRAChpt was formed in 1817 it took charge of approx 12 other degrees including the Mariners as the Grand Conclave discontinued them.

By Roy V - 12/01/2009 16:40:13

wolfy (11/01/2009)

Please correct me if i am wrong here as i have no knowledge of either KT or RAM.

And fortunately you have no experience of pirates - glad you're home for a while.

By Lew Finnis - 13/01/2009 21:40:34

Thanks, Bob C. for the correction - the strange things you get up to north of the border always confuse me........

By Roy V - 14/01/2009 07:42:41

It still does! And I don't go sarf of the river, guv!

By wolfy - 14/01/2009 12:38:17

Thanks roy its nice to be back! (and am at college for the next 7 months lol)

So can i take it that although the KT did have a fleet of ships (either as a naval style fighting force or a transportation means), that RAM has nothing to do with them?

By Lew Finnis - 14/01/2009 13:52:21

Quite right, James. RAM is set a little bit further back in time........

By bob c - 14/01/2009 19:16:43

Lew Finnis (13/01/2009)

Thanks, Bob C. for the correction - the strange things you get up to north of the border always confuse me........

Lew,

You should venture up sometime and hopefully the malt will blur out some of that confusion:w00t:

By Lew Finnis - 14/01/2009 22:22:10

I would love to visit north of the border - it's a case of time and money! The last Scottish Lodge I visited was Lodge St Andrew (No. 966, I think) in Malta in 1977 - haggis piped in to the FB!

By cambridgemason - 27/03/2009 14:57:32

there is a knights efferge in stone in westfield ma, and it is rumored that the vikings did come to this land b4 columbus and also did a group of KT's. Where the fleet of KT ships went to is a mystery, as I posted b4, some masons believe that they became pirates, not like the pirates of today or from those we read in books. As for columbus he did sail under a white flag with a red cross, rumors suggest that a relative of his family was a mason, and that may be the reason behind the cross of the templar, or it could from another order of that period. Only specualtions, maybe someday we will find out the right.

By Iain - 27/03/2009 16:02:30

There is record in Dumbarton Castle that a knights Templar fleet landed there in 1314 which would add to the local historys of the templars Passing through the villages etc, There is an unusualy large number of Templar built buildings in this area they must have got here somehow, Then there is the encampments at Knightswood further up the river and another in govan. Unless they all flew here I would suggest there was quite a large Templar fleet as all these places wern't created by a small ammount of men. They could have walked or rode here but why would they come through a country that was in the midst of Civil war added to the fact they were being persecuted in any Catholic country which England was. Scotland had been ex communicated by Rome because of the actions of king Robert where there is also historical doccuments of the Templars fighting for king Roberts army in Stirling. I still think that there were no Templar Pirates that they were declared pirates or outwith the law by Rome and the king of France.

By cambridgemason - 27/03/2009 16:27:30

thank you brother Iain, did not know about the 1314 landing of the fleet and the buildings. Maybe someday someone will find out.

thanks very much.

By lauderdale - 27/03/2009 22:54:17

Bro Iain, although I was born in Govan and knew of Knightswood I didn't realise the KT connection. It should have been obvious from the name "Knightswood" but where did they have their encampment in Govan? I believe there was an area in Glasgow called "Temple" and I wonder if that had any connection with the KTs?

By Iain - 28/03/2009 00:36:26

I will get the book back with the part about the Templars landing in Dumbarton It is in our library and send you the author etc. The country was ex communicated due to the king killing someone in a catholic church I believe, as he was the King Rome kicked the country out basicly. King Robert was also a KT and before he died built The great ship in calmalid in Dumbarton to sail an army to the Holly land for a new crusade but sadly he died before it hapened, His heart was however taken on the Crusade. Some of his remains were interred in St Serfs church (derelict) a few years past in Dumbarton I went to the ceremony.

Lauderdale

Yes Knightswood, Temple, Temple wood and quite a few others were all templar related, In Govan in the camp was what they thought was an old mot and bailey the time team found out it was a templar camp next to the Parish church, which made sense that way anyone coming into the clyde valey by boat had to pass the Castle at Dumbarton and passed that the KT had both sides of the river covered, Basicly no one came or went without them knowing.

There are templar graves in all the old churchyards around from Dumbarton up the clyde through Bowling, Govan and Partick and into knightswood.

There are also buildings and spittals at every old major road that were templar built

By lauderdale - 28/03/2009 02:03:31

Thanks Bro Iain. I will be in Glasgow in about a months time so must go to Govan and look for some of these places. I know the Old Govan Church near the Pierces Institute at Govan Cross.

By Alan Campbell - 28/03/2009 20:43:10

Would love to see the evidence of the templars landing in Scotland as everything that i have read has been speculation. Most of the temple lands that i know of in Scotland are due to the hospitallers and not the Templars.

By gordon B. - 28/03/2009 21:02:52

Hello to you both from dumfries,,just to let you know that the old greyfriars church is not poundstretcher,and may i recomend to anyone wishing to know more about the templars in scotland i recommend "Bob Coopers" The Roslyn Hoax, i have found it a great informative read and puts flight a lot of the fantasy surrounding templar myth.

By Iain - 29/03/2009 10:57:34

Regarding the excommunication, Bruce stabbed John Comyn 3rd, Lord of Badenoch or John "the Red", also known simply as the Red Comyn in what was the old Greyfriars church,(now apparently Poundstretcher), in Dumfries on Feb 1306. He came out of the church and told what had happened. His ally and friend Rodger De Kirkpatrick then went in to finish the job uttering You doubt! I'll mak siccar, (I'll make sure).

For this it was Bruce that was excommunicated and not the country of Scotland. There are no historical records of the time,(that I'm aware of) that shows that the scottish population stopped going to mass. The term excommunication is to prevent a person from continuing to part of a religious group(catholic), but still allow to leave the way open for reconciliation. Part of the sanction of the Papal Bull was not to say mass for Bruce.

I believe that this important issue plays a major role in forming an opinon of the KT fleeing to Scotland.

Now the evidence of Bruce being a member of the Order is also an interesting statement of which I really would be keen to see evidence.

Sorry I have just the extracts now I will get the actual books and authors asap

Bruce attacked Comyn before the high altar of the church of the Greyfriars monastery and fled. On being told that Comyn had survived the attack and was being treated, two of Bruce's supporters, Roger de Kirkpatrick and John Lindsay, went back into the church and finished Comyn off. Bruce was excommunicated for this crime, which eventually led to the excommunication first of the barons who supported him and then the entire country.^[6] Realising that the 'die had been cast'.

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, based on literature of the times, state that Hugues de Payens visited England's Henry I and the king received him with much honor, and gave him rich presents. However, as a Templar, he was obligated to sign over the title, to his possessions, to the Knights Templar cause. In 1128, Hugh de Payens met with King David I of Scotland, soon after the Council of Troyes. King David granted Hugues and his knights the lands of Ballantradoch, by the Firth of Forth. William the Lion promoted and encouraged the knights and they received lands around the Lothians and Aberdeen. They had deeds to property in Ayr and western Scotland. A large contingent of Templars were found at Bannockburn in 1314. Afterwards they (Templars) were also prominant in Lorne and Argyll.

From the time of Robert the Bruce, each successive Bruce and Stewart heir was reputed to be Knights Templar from birth. One must remember that this was part and parcel of many genealogical claims made in the past

In 1314, the Battle of Bannockburn was won when a Templar force led by Sir William St Clair came to Bruce's aid and this victory settled the issue of Scottish independence. Scotland remained an independent kingdom for the next 289 years, when King James VI acceded to the throne of England and united the two kingdoms in 1603. In 1320 the Declaration of Arbroath proclaimed the independence of Scotland, insinuating that the Scots were descended from the Israelites previously in bondage in Egypt.

"On 6 April 1320, an extraordinary document -- the so-called Declaration of Arbroath -- was issued. It took the form of a letter commissioned and signed by eight earls and thirty-one other nobles, including representatives of the Seton, Sinclair and Graham families. This letter adumbrated the legendary history of the Scots from their alleged origins in Scythia and their conversion there by St Andrew. It described Robert Bruce as their deliverer and hailed him (with biblical comparisons traditionally dear to the Templars) as 'a second Maccabaeus or Joshua'. .

For some time, Edward of England had longed to rid the Scottish Church of its powerful nationalist bishops -- prelates such as Lamberton of St Andrews, Wishart of Glasgow and William Sinclair of Dunkeld (brother of Sir Henry Sinclair of Rosslin, signatory of the Arbroath Declaration). To this end, the English king had badgered successive popes not to consecrate any new native-born bishops into the Scottish Church. In the Avignon-based Pope John XXII he found a sympathetic ear. Bruce, however, aligned himself with his own bishops in defying the Pontiff's wishes and in 1318 he was again excommunicated, along with James Douglas and the Earl of Moray. A year later, the Pope demanded that the bishops of St Andrews, Dunkeld, Aberdeen and Moray appear before him to explain themselves. They ignored him and, in June 1320, were also excommunicated. Throughout the course of this row, the Pope had persisted in refusing to recognise Bruce as king, pointedly referring to him only as 'ruler of the Kingdom of Scotland'. It was not until 1324 that Pope John XXII relented and Bruce was finally acknowledged monarch in the Church's eyes."

I will add more shortly when I have the relevent pieces

By Iain - 29/03/2009 11:01:44

Lauderdale (27/03/2009)

I found this.

They also acted as parish clergy at Inchinnan in Renfrewshire and several are buried at the Renfrew end of the runway of Glasgow Airport where All Hallows Church of Scotland had to be demolished when the runway was built, as it was in the direct flight path. Several Templar tombstones were removed at that time to the replacement church, St Conval's Church of Scotland, Inchinnan, and are in the Church grounds.

The present Minister, Rev Marlyn Maclane would I am sure be delighted to answer any questions that may be asked of her. Entry to the Templar cemetery requires the permission of Glasgow Airport security and can only be accessed with security present.

As for Govan the saturday market is the area where the Templar encampment was I believe the references to it are held in the Govan Parish church, Not the old parish church but the one down beside the river at the market

More to come

By Iain - 29/03/2009 14:22:14

http://www.roslin-whatbattle.com/Abernethy.htm

Information on the templars in Scotland. You also have to remember that most of the info on the templars amongst much other things was removed during the civil wars and never returned and then again by Cromwells forces which 15 Hogs heads of doccuments records and accounts were removed from the castle of Dumbarton.

If they have no history then they can have no future.

Cant remember which king stated this but it was one of the many who came here.

By cambridgemason - 30/03/2009 16:07:38

have any of you brothers from across the sea, ever consider going on tour? The wealth of information that you have is surperb. Many of our new candidates are in search of such information, seems that they want to know where they came from since they are now members of the craft. It seems that they are studing up on the order, and with all the new hip about our Frateranity they look and eat up this stuff. Thanks for all the info thus far.

By Iain - 30/03/2009 20:31:49

cambridgemason (30/03/2009)

What you have to remember bro cambridgemason is all this stuff is fine if you take it not as gospel but as a line of enquirey, To debate over points such as this serves to bring in more points of view and pieces of information that you may have not seen. Topics such as this are very fragmented and there are so many myths attached a big picture is hard to form. They shouldnt be thought on as factual but be more a prompt for study or research.

If brothers sit and listen they will hear. After time and practice they will recite, but through debate they will learn and understand.

Dunno who said that last bit but I like it:D

By cambridgemason - 30/03/2009 20:55:27

true, but if one can stimulate that interest than one can begin to research and read on his own. it is the stimulation that in most cases i have seen interests a mason to begin to study. i was stimulated by some of these writings that you brothers offer for YES it may be myth or rumors by at some point myths and rumors do have some level of truth behind them. to me there are two possible roads that a mason today may travel to find or begin to understand the beginings of FreeMasonry as we know it today. One that we emerged directly from stonemason guilds of the past, operative to speculative or. Two that we emerged from the KT's that took from those stonemason guilds and past it done to our ancient brethren. see brother Iain, I guess what I am saying is you men live it, it is home, it is part of your history, like for me to talk about the revolution and colonial freemasonry, it is what i live around each day. you bring something new to the field and yes there is much to debate, as much did the KT's of old travel to the new country, and who is buried in westfield under the KT stone effigy. For he that does not add to the common stock of knowledge.

thanks for the stimulation

By Terry - 30/03/2009 23:29:17

Iain (29/03/2009)

http://www.roslin-whatbattle.com/Abernethy.htm

If they have no history then they can have no future.

Cant remember which king stated this but it was one of the many who came here.

Bro Iain,

what a fascinating site, certainly throws new light on an old story, I await more on this from you

By AUDE VIDE TACE - 12/11/2009 18:33:00

Brethren

I found this post very informative and enjoyable to read, I hope that I am not too late to get some responses.

Have any of you read the book: The Warriors and the Bankers: a History of the Knights Templar from 1307 to the present.

There is a chapter in the Book dealing with the missing Fleet and the America's as discussed in this post.

Your thoughts will be appreciated.

S&F

AVT

By Russell Holland - 12/11/2009 22:24:30

AUDE VIDE TACE (12/11/2009)

The Warriors and the Bankers: a History of the Knights Templar from 1307 to the present.

I have not read that book but it may be relevant that in the very year the Templars (having been defeated in Palestine) ceased to be a military force, several cantons in what is now Switzerland decided to declare their independence of their prince. This overtly was a bunch of farmers and bakers successfully resisting military forces.

Those cantons went on to set up a secretive banking system and using the colour inverse of the Templar flag.

The coincidence of timing, banking and flag may provide an answer to what happened to much of the Templar forces. The remainder presumably went to Scotland and to form the Teutonic Knights in what became Prussia.

By lauderdale - 12/11/2009 23:20:52

Slightly off subject but does anyone know of a Masonic Order based on the Teutonic Knights?

By Terry - 28/11/2009 22:47:22

Russell, I seem to recall that these so called knights in what is now switzerland, where never defeated in battle for a few hundred years

By lauderdale - 26/03/2010 00:25:46

Interesting, I was born in Govan in 1953 and know well of that particular church. I was not aware of the Templar connection though.

By Alan Campbell - 26/03/2010 10:47:03

Eggbutt (25/03/2010)

I attended Govan Old church for several years and knew the Incumbent very well (Tom Davidson Kelly). There are a number of Masonic and Templar graves in the churchyard, which dates back to 563AD. Govan also has a singular connection with the Craft due to its close ties with Ireland and the south Renfrewshire area which includes Killwinning (Lodge No 1)

That would be mother Kilwinning number 0, lodge number 1 is in edinburgh.