This is my first topic suggestion, this time around, as I was a "forumite" several years ago, so forgive me if you have covered this subject recently...if thats the case then perhaps some kind brother will point me to the appropriate forum section.

Anyway, here goes.....

Why do some Freemasons believe that the Craft originated or were influenced by the Knights Templars?

What actual evidence is there?

I have read many books which deliver theory after theory much without any substance and I therefore would be grateful to any brother that might share his views on this topic.

I know we all have our pet theories on the KT subject, so please post them and lets try to sift the truth from the fanicful.

Many thanks 

As far as Im aware there is no evidence linking the KT's to masonry, buts its romantic, and is a better explanation then saying 1717, but we know nothing;),

Anyway, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Here in the states KT is part of the Masonic Family as York Rite. Many Masonic Temples have KT rooms in it.

Like this room found on the sixth floor of the Detroit Masonic Temple. This room is four stories tall, this room is half way up the ritualistic tower. The cross that you see is dead center of the tower.

Many thanks for your comments and yes you are right!...So many of our theories of origin are so romantic....not sure why. Anyway, I don't have a problem with 1717 as a formal start date, especially if we understand that the start date was a result of a retropective account of that first asembly of London masons which Anderson wrote in the first and second Books of Constitution. (1724 &1738 if my memory serves me correct)

My problem is how we got involved in this Knights Templar business, particularly when both the official Knights Templar organisation and the Masonic Knights Templar Order make no claim of connection what so ever.

Thanks for your response Terry

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I guess latterly, Hollywood hasn't helped with some of it's output, but I think it all started way back in about 1734 when the Chevalier Andrew Michael Ramsey delivered his oration (in France) making that very first connection between KT, the crusades and Freemasonry. If you haven't read the oration I will gladly let you have details of the salient points.

In England, we too have KT Preceptories meeting in our Lodge rooms, but not part of the York Rite, the York Rite is not practised here, neither is KT part of what we might accept as Pure Antient Masonry although many Grand Lodge officers patronise the Order.

Many thanks for your comments.

There was a definite attempt to make Freemasonry "time immemorial", but there was never at attempt made by Anderson, Desegulier, Payne etc., to make any connection with the Crusades or KT.

Anderson was certainly pretty flamboyant with his Craft history found in the 1738 Constitutions, in fact anybody who was anybody who had patronised architecture in any way in history was recorded as being a Grand Master or at least a Grand Warden.

He was obviously the romantic one!

Many thanks for your comments!

Thanks for joining this thread.

What I am looking for are the reasons, evidence etc., why we make this connection.

There are so many wild claims made in so many well written and eloquent books, but there is little hard evidence, only theory and assumption.

Sadly I am one of those that consider there must be a basis, platform or standard for any statement. Otherwise anybody could say anything they liked and the world would be in chaos as a result.

Take the Iraq war for example. Britain went to war on the advice that Iraq held weapons of mass destruction...quite simply they did not, and as a result, many innocent people died.

As for the KT "in spirit" or "reincarnation" you suggest, I know exactly what you mean, but the world has been full of fraternities since man felt it necessary to put pen to paper and record his actions, C.4000 bc. In particular the Roman Collegia and the Commacine Masters, builders of great renown, fidelity and loyalty....why not these earlier groups?

Once again, many thanks for your comments.

You make some interesting points, and I would be pleased to hear of any spiritual or esoteric teachings that may apply to both groups.

Thus far, many of the books I have read seem to be full of references to Rosslyn and how the masonic teachings (I'm not sure to what teachings are being referred to here) came from the East.

Well of course, all learning originally came from the East, as that was where man first chose to record his activities.

Much reference is made to certain carvings of a man in a blindfold, wearing an apron with his hand on a book. I think it was Lomas and knight that suggested this was a masonic initiation.

However, as far as my understanding goes, the book could not have been a bible as they were not available till a century or so after the statue was carved. It may have been a book of constitutions which every operative mason apprentice (and all apprentices of any trade come to that) was expected to take his oath upon. That was common practice during these times and a requirement by law, certainly in England at the time, and I guess later, the Schaw Statutes would have required the same.

As for the apron, this also was the garb of an operative mason so there's nothing new there.

As for the hoodwink, I've yet to research, least to say that in any of the old lodge minutes (pre 1717)  and old MS charges I've read, there is no reference to being hoodwinked.

Personally looking at the carving, and in line with all the out carvings that can be seen, I would hazard a guess to say that it was a carving of a young apprentice being taken into the trade.

Of course, it could always be the young apprentice that carved the apprentice pillar, you know the one that out shone his master, so master killed him, but thats purely guess work.

Many thanks for your input into this thread.

Have read the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, and the Hiram Key some time back, maybe I'll revisit them.

I have met Henry Lincoln, co-author of that book along with Lyn Picknett co-author of the Templar Revelation at a local symposium, the day was very long and heavy as there was about ten lectures by various authors.

The twelfth planet I never heard of, is it a good read?

What I have difficulty in getting my head around is what is so secret about the KT that Freemasonry now possesses!

Anything that was hidden at Rosslyn or even Rennes, was done long before Freemasonry as we know it was conceived. And if the St.Clairs had any secrets to hold onto, what are they and how do they effect us now?

Do you consider what the KT held is more spiritual or esoteric?

Are those the secrets?

I have to say I am enjoying your posts, I have read both holy grail and Hiram Key, but will now get 12th planet,

Yes, there does seem some mystery to KT's can't put my finger on it, although I strongly identify with Kt's, it seems to be esoteric in meaning, and I will post some items on the esoteric nature of this thread from another one I am on, I hasten to add, not my own, but others who have far more knowledge than myself

This Trinitarian tenet or belief is certainly a requirement to join A & AR (Rose Croix) and please correct me if I'm wrong Red Cross of Constantine.

So obviously KT has a very strong Christian element or message?

As the  workings and circumambulations in freemasonry follow far older traditions than christianity it is easy to see why they would go underground through the years of persecution of any practice other than that of Roman Catholic.

This would have suited orders like the Templars who fell from grace with Rome and I dare say they would have added to what later became freemasonry as we know it  in Some way.

To try and search out pieces of paper to back this up or in anyway prove it  is never going to happen.

It is one of these questions that there is no provable answer just what you believe yourself.

It is also possible that Knights Templar who were born in or lived in the uk were already members of some form what was to become freemasonry, The Victorian writers were the biggest romantics of all I find and are much at fault for the common miss conceptions

Hi Iain

Not sure I agree with the statement that the traditions of Freemasonry following far older traditions than Christianity.

I am more happy with the statement that Freemasonry adopted or even stole existing practices when it officially formed in 1717, at which time it was undoubtedly Christian.

And please don't get me wrong, I am not saying all Freemasonry stems from 1717, but that is the reference point I use, as even your own Masonic traditions north of the border seemed to change not long after that.

However, I agree with you that we imitate practices which possibly predate the Masonic time line.

And so we do in our everyday life, an example being, both the Christmas and Easter festivals we calibrate and which were originally pagan festivals, not of course called Christmas and Easter, at that stage.

Inheriting, adopting or even stealing traditions as the early church seem to do, was not uncommon.

I think I quite like the quote by Daniel Beresniak in his book, Symbols of Freemasonry, when he said.

"...in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, Freemasons took their inspirations from the rites and customs of the Guild of Masons in order to give their work structure, organisation and symbols..."

Hence my suggestion that Anderson "stole" these things, but I am happy with the terms "adopt or adapt".

They say that "imitation is the highest form of flattery".

Sadly, I do believe however, that the early Operative Lodges (in England and possibly to some extent maybe Scotland),  along with some of their customs, practices and history, has been lost at the expense of the success of Andersons invention.

Dare I say that I have often thought the the Operative system in Scotland which accepted Speculative or Gentlemen Masons (and which I believe predates Englands Acception ceremonies for Gentlemen)  as members, eventually sold out to the Premier Grand Lodge, rather than continue their own practices. 

I'd be interested in the views of other on that subject.

I too, like Iain believe freemasonry in some form is far older than we will admit, I believe it goes back thousands of years, no proof, just what I feel,

Also agree that Scottish freemasonry is far older than Andersons invention, I believe he only got what he could half remember and the rest was denied to him

I think as far as exisiting records are concerned, QCCC members have carried out some pretty exhustive research on all manner aspects concerning various records. Are there another group of records you are referring to?

With regard to the research paper, which sounds interesting, If you can't print it, perhaps you can share some of its contents for us to debate!

In a lot of the older Scottish lodges you will see vast differences not in the spoken ritual as such where there is some but not much, But in the movements and circumambulations.

I think this stemmed from GLOS not standardizing practices as happened in other places, Lodges are encouraged to keep there uniquness. Hence the candidate placed on  the mark of the summer solstice (NE corner ) then the SE corner (spring equinox ) winter St john when we hold a full festival ( winter solstice ) where a silent toast is held by all during procedings. This festival is unique to my own mother lodge,

The Alter is central which the circumambulations are carried out and the tools and laws sit dead center ( Point within the circle )

Each point a candidate is taken to throughout his degrees has a significant point relating to the earth sun stars and moon,  I often wonder if the words have changed and adapted throughout the years, but the circumambulations have remained as a remenant of past practices. I think if all were to be standerdised so much would be lost. Each of the older lodges we visit here adds another piece to the story. And it makes visiting other lodges so good to see the differences and see what it adds to your personal understanding.

I personaly think that to see the same workings each time you visit a lodge with the same words and the same movements would become somewhat tedious.  The unique nature of each lodge is to me what keeps freemasonry so interesting,  You learn from each visit. 

I'm with Mike and Lauderdale, would love to read this association with KT's, the romantic in me wishes it was so, and as I've said before,

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Just like the 'Witchcraft is Satanism' misconception, but the truth is witchcraft predates Christianity and therefore do not believe in Satan. Yet, you can have Satanic witches but are not be confused with Seax-Wicans (Saxon Wiccans) or Druid witches.

Knights Templar and the Masonic Templar Knights are a different fish and that fish may swim in either fresh water or salt water and rarely do they adapt, therefore they are different.

Hi Terry,

Does this not pave the way for anyone, to make anything up, wthout evidence or research?

This has happened in several modern books that have been written about our order and the KT. One claimed that there were 33 degrees in the Royal Arch.

Chris,

Perhaps you have the rituals for them;)

My own opinion is that Scottish Freemasonry came from the Incorporations as they, plus the lodges, evolved side by side at the time.

Then England pinched the lodge idea:w00t:

We have the Mark, Ark, Holy Royal Arch. As for any Chapter (Commandery in the U.S.) in which you are ask to join (called upon) we don't have this, to my knowledge.

I am not a member of the Holy Royal Arch which I have heard is a  massive undertaking from what I heard. I can't imagine what the Order of the Preceptories (Commandery) is like. There is no direct relation with the historic KT and the Masonic KT.

I personally think that there may be a problem with the assumption that Templar knights for some reason joined operative Masonic assemblies. Is there actual evidence for this? It may be the case but is the missing link. There is a poster on this forum who has discovered the link between the Templars and the Freemasons so hopefully we will all soon find out :)

I think whatever the link of the real KT to Freemasonry we should not get it confused with the modern speculative KT order. Which I don't believe has any direct link to the Knights Templar at all. Although I stand to be corrected.

The majority of the higher degrees that popped up at this time with any link to Scotland came about for the political reasons of the Jacobites...

On the other side, I think that most of us consider the story of H:.A:. a masonic legend as well, despite of the efforts of certain brethren (Lomas and Co.) to try to "prove" that he was a historic figure of the past, therefore in my opinion there's nothing wrong with the story of Heredom if we consider it "allegoric".

About Ramsay and his speech in 1737 there's this link:

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/ramsay_a/ramsay_a.html

I think that this is what the opener of the thread wanted to know: the origins of the templar/masonic connection.

Me too, but as I said there is a very well informed poster on this site who has spent a long time looking into it and has apparently found a real connection. So I know everyone will be really excited when his paper comes out.

I don't have a problem with anyone's view on the subject, whether they take it as fact, allegory or fiction. I am in KT and Malta and can't see any allegory relating to the connection of the actual historic KT to the Masonic order, but maybe I'm a bit thick and that's why it's not my favorite order :) Maybe it's just that my path lies elsewhere. I am not however in any other Templar based order so don't know how they view their connections with the original order.

Thanks for the link.

Sorry I thought he was after hard evidence:

I must have misread both yours and his quotes. Anyway, not to worry...

1)This is indeed interesting, where is he going to present his paper?At Quator Coronati?

2)Oh well, I'm not familiar with the templar degree as it is worked in England, all my observations refer to the 30th degree of the RSAA, at least how it's worked in Europe and the US. In that system, the degree is supposed to emulate the initiation of the Templar Knights, including Baphomet, the destruction of the Temple, the revenge of the Order etc...etc...

I'm looking forward to entering in the KTs in order to see if there is a difference, I also suspect that in England the Kadosh degree is also very different, if not completely opposite in the meaning.

3)I understood that he wanted to have an historic connection, to me Ramsay's speech is the first solid proof, before 1737 I can't really say...

To quote our rituals is also incorrect, we understand that the degrees are symbolic and not fact, especially the 3rd degree and the hiramic legend, so why would we count the KT's degrees as anything different.

That's right, he said something along the lines of "Descended from a line of Chilvery" Although I haven't seen his oration for a long while.

And whilst there have been some good arguments, there is no proof of a direct link (outside your work) between Freemasonry and the Knights Templar.

Most early high degrees created in France are a reaction by the Jacobites to the creation of the Hanovian backed English Grand Lodge.

As I said I can't really comment on other Templar degrees such as ROS, or I could but not with and first hand evidence!

As far as I am aware the most removed and traceable Templarish degree is CBCS which was an attempt to preserve Martinism and had nothing to do with KT perse...

I could say today that Freemasonry is descended from marshmallows that doesn't mean in 300 years someone could quote my statement as the first cited evidence...

...and I'm EXTREMELY impatient to see you "tangible proof", brother.:P

Quite a lot of people, especially in the Continent, claim to have "proof" of that, they always refers to documents like lists of members of operative lodges in the XIIIth century, a pity that they never gave me access to these papers...:angry::P

Mmm, I'll make an example.

I know some italian freemasons who claim to have found a old list of members of an operative lodge in Bologna from 1248. In this list it seems that there are the names of two templar knights.

This document is supposed to be in custody of the University of Bologna, Faculty of Architecture, and the masonic researcher who supposely found it in the late 80s is a 33rd degree AASR and (in)famous professor of the University.

The story therefore sounds verosimile, the problem is that they always denied access to this document.

I think there shouldn't be a problem about the name of the author, he is Eugenio Bonvicini, the book where he presented his discovery is the following:

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788871690025/bonvicini-eugenio/massoneria-antica-dalla.html

He is very well known in the italian AASR, at least he was, now he should be around his 90s. The problem that I have is that the many of the members of the Grand Orient of Italy are using this document as a "weapon" to prove that they are older than the british Grand Lodges, that because in 1993 UGLE withdrew his recognisement of the GOI, with the result that they got very bitter and they are trying to re-write our History.

Oh, being a english freemason in Italy is not fun, at all.

Carta di Bologna, bro.AJM.

As far as I understood it's a gothic constitution, and that books deals with gothic documents from 1248 to 1717.

I may try to collect more informations, I've Bonvicini's book on the AASR, interesting reading, but I don't have that particular volume, and it's a bit expensive as well...:P

P.S.It may be of interest to try to contact him but as said before the brethren of Bologna aren't very...well inclined towards members of UGLE. Besides that, they said that Bonvicini in the last years became a little..ehm difficult to reach. You may try to get his book though although it's pretty rare because the publishing house Atanor is extinct.

I don't know of course but I've always assumed that anyone who makes claims like this and then refuses to show the evidence is talking a load of old bologna...

I am sure that our Italian cousins, if in true possession of such a document would be only happy to share it.

For some reason the scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where the French are taunting from the castle parapet comes to mind, don't know why...

He did ask permission to join in and discuss his work on the Forum and he did indeed offer the thesis for review.

Unfortunately, I turned it down due to a rather large reading pile and trying to start a paper on the 1794 classic "Proofs of a Conspiracy" by John Robison which I've just finished reading.

In fact I'm beginning to regret that now as I am starting to become intrigued by what this link could be. I've read most of them to date and none have been convincing to me at least.

Many thanks for the reply.

As a side I'm not one who is convinced,( at the moment) by any links between the Templars/Freemasonry and Rosslyn. I've studied the subject for several years now and have came to the conclusion that all of these type of books feed off one another, and add a different wee twist at the end. To me personaly it gets a bit boring.

I've read Bob's books on several occasions and I feel he does keep his feet on the ground. He actualy looks at the social aspect/impact of Scotland during those times which imho is very important.

Having started this thread, I have followed closely all the posts and I must confess I have been quite interested in what you have had to say, and thus far I must confess that hasn't been much other than to promote your thesis, which I am not sure this is the platform for doing so.

I have no doubt your work has great merit, but it is a commercial venture and should be directed to the appropriate section of this website and not the forum.

If you wanted to discuss the content and value of your thesis then that is for those who have read it and are members of this site and are quite at liberty to do so.

Therefore as the Duke of Wellington once said,  "Publish and be damned!"

I could not agree with you more, it certainly is everyones right to post exactly what they want and for the moderators to likewise decide on the suitability of the post, and for forum members to also make their points, preferences and choices, and that is exactly what I have done.

All the members I have found on this site have been open, forthright, honest and willing to express their well thought out and in many case well researched opinions, and although in many cases I do not always agree with what is being said, they place no charge on their points of view or findings other than the giving of that opinion or informations for the edification of all other brethren who subscribe to this site, hence the many things we learn here together.

My objections were based on opinion that bother AJM could have shared information and advanced the topic with us, but only at a price.

I also was surprised, if I can remember correctly, that one of AJM posts suggested his paper be read only by persons of a certain academic level.

I am sorry if my stance offends any forum members.

You have repeatedly asked for people to read the paper so I don't see what the issue is.

Do you not have any volunteers?

If you would like I would happily squeeze your paper in however I am not an expert on the subject and I feel that there are some Brethren on this site who would be much more capable than I.

Please don't be offended by the opinions of others, for if that was the case we would all stay silent.

Neither should you feel that anybody here is unmasonic, hurtful or rude in their comments.  We are all adults and engage in some very lively exchanges which on the debating floor we must all expect.

Many of us temper our comments, many others say exactly what we feel, I often fall into the latter category, either way, you are sure to get a fair hearing when you post a comment on this forum.

So either some of us misunderstood you, or you failed to explain to some of us exactly what you meant, or just plain and simple some of us did not agree with your comments, either way when we lift our head above the parapet and make a comment, somebody is always there to take a shot at us.

So I say again, nobody here intentionally sets out to offend anybody else, butit still occasionally happens.

AJM,

I equired into the cost because of which I felt were the confusing use of commas and fullstops to distinguish the price. You have at the bottom of your signature your "official website", so naturaly some are going to visit it and have done so. But what seems to be the crux here is that we are allowed to ask questions regarding your findings on the website but not the thesis cost, which is, still part of the website. No underhandedness was intended on my part just a genuine question for which I personaly am not going to apologise for.

I'm sorry if you feel you have been hard done by, and I wish you well on you endeavours.

He did not come here to sell anything - HE OFFERED IT FOR FREE

He did not come here to drum up interest in a book as there isn't one and he clearly stated that by the time that happens, if it happens, any interest created by this forum will have long since passed.

He came to what he saw as a forum full of people who would be able to give their honest opinion on his thesis.

He asked for help and for some reason got suspicion.

It's not rocket science. He wanted us to read his thesis and then tell him if we thought it was good or not.

Nosameerf has said he has received a copy FOR FREE. Now AJM has sent me one FOR FREE.

No cost, no con, just the thesis offered some time ago.

Well, there is a small cost.

This man would like our honest opinion on the work he has spent years on.

I think we have all apologised to AJM and "put the record straight" as it were.

However, what appeared to happen was a new member came into the forum and we are generally guarded until the Newbie "earns their laurels".  This case was slightly different and I think we could have handled things a bit different just the same as AJM could have been a little more open with the forum from the start.

Having said all that, its nice to see brethren wishing him well and now enjoying his thesis. 

Is it possible that I can have a copy to read

Sorry, not my area of expertise, but wouldn't the Masons who built the Culdee edifices have largely been imported and already Christian?

Don't know though. I read an interesting book about it called "The secrets of Freemasonry, Their history and connection to the Knights Templar" which laid out a very good case for this.

However, this was a while ago and even if I remembered it perfectly it was still only one persons opinion!

I would suggest if you want to investigate a link to the Culdees you need a new topic. I'm sure the only time I've seen a link tried between the 3 was in a Knight/Lomas or Baigent/Leigh production. However, it is still a new topic.

Here`s a small puzzle to think about which I stumbled across recently. It`s a bit of a wild card and if there is a simple explanation, apologies and please post it here.

Recently, while leafing through a copy of the poems of Robert Burns, I came across a word contained in the poem "The Twa Dugs". The word was " bowsant" and it was being used to describe a Collie dog.

Now, I`m not bad at vernacular Scots but I had never come across this one before. Quickly turning to the glossary, it stated rather laconically " Black and white"

Fair enough, a black and white Collie dog then - but a bell was ringing somewhere in the back of my head.

Bowsant - Beauseant ?   The name of the Templars black and white battle standard. This is just how you might expect a foreign (French) word to be corrupted when it has been incorporated into local usage over a long period of time.

Although Burns` language seems obscure to modern eyes, he was writing in the vernacular of his time and locale. Presumably thousands of others were familiar with the word "bowsant" to describe black and white. Where could this word come from ?. I can`t think of any root or association other than Beauseant. Was it a throw back to a time when this flag was regularly seen and identified ?. Maybe just a coincidence ?

Makes you think though !

Fraternal Regards

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/masonic-legends.html

http://www.templars.org.uk/index-old.htm or http://www.knightstemplar-uk.co.uk/ 

There are others as well.