Good or Bad TV Coverage

Good or Bad TV Coverage

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By Mike Martin - 11/01/2009 01:07:25

I thought I would share the hot topic on the UKMASONLIST at the moment with the Forum.

These videos have generated a very heated debate amongst The Masons there. So I thought I would see what everyone here thinks.

http://www.itvlocal.com/thamesvalley/news/?&void=275845

http://www.itvlocal.com/meridian/news/?player=MER_News_15&void=276401

Please post whether you think these are a good idea or not.

By Iain - 11/01/2009 02:53:10

I honestly have no idea why brethren feel they have to justify themselves in this way, do they not realize that when they do this sort of thing they come over as speaking for the whole fraternity, How do you expect someone entering the craft to uphold his obligations when he sees this garbage before he enters the craft

I think to many people are making there own minds up which parts of there obligation they will pay heed to. I know for some reason one of the Grand lodges decided that the only parts of our degrees would be the grip and words covered by the obligation which unless you have a diluted obligation is not true. and that started a snowball effect ( i will post where i read of this when i find it) with people breaking there necks to be the next one to profit from the secrets of the craft. But when all the grand lodges around the world decide which parts of the obligation will be kept secret in there eyes it dosent take long to fit the whole picture together. Even although there is not one part of our ritual or obligations that cannot be found in books or online written by so called freemasons looking to profit from the craft, I know for a fact that the older Scottish lodges some of the oldest in the world hold each member strictly to there obligation, any member even seen giving a grip in a public place let alone on TV would be asked for his diplomas. and removed from the craft.

what is more dumbfounding is that some Grand lodges as we have seen in other parts of the forum control what there brethren think and say but allow them to make a farce of freemasonry and openly show parts of it that they all took an obligation under strict penalties to keep hidden.

My opinion after watching the clips amongst others I have seen, The brethren on display should be removed from the craft and the provincial and grand officers who agreed for them to do it should likewise be removed from the craft. And let the worlds freemasons see this political correctness, profiteering and power hungry people who think that they decide alone what is a secret will not be tolerated in freemasonry. It amazes me that secrets kept hidden and in trust for hundreds of years can be destroyed by a mindless power hungry few who claim power in freemasonry

Disgusted, Dissolusioned, Embarrassed and Angry!

As always the opinions are mine and not of the craft

By wolfy - 11/01/2009 11:15:05

Generally Good I would say.

There are a couple of bits i cringed at. one being obvious the other saying that we were a bit of a closed shop helping our members. this dodnt really ring true since 2 seconds before they were saying how much we give to charities and hospitals! lol

On the whole i thought it was quite well balanced, however that one bit!!! aggghhhh! oh well, i wouldnt be surprised if that was done by non masons for the camera anyway! lets face it there arent any real secrets any more! lol

By Mike Martin - 11/01/2009 12:12:23

This was my own response to the debate:

Brethren all,
This response is not aimed at anyone in particular but I hope will help many to understand why we need to get rid of our sometimes overly secretive side. I speak as a Mason of 15 years standing but more importantly as someone who started his Masonic journey on the other side of the fence. My first ever contact with Freemasonry was a book called "The Brotherhood" by a miscreant named Stephen Knight, I am the first Freemason in my family. The first few years of my travels were spent believing that the Masons were corrupt and involved in many conspiracies. The difference with me and the "Internet generation" was that I liked to read for myself and as I read more books on Freemasonry I realised my first impressions were wrong.

Freemasonry has long been a target for conspiracy theorists, most notably the Abbe Barruel (Jesuit Priest) and John Robison (ex-Mason) in the 1790s and Leo Taxil (who can be personally credited with the Catholic Church's opposition to us) in 1890s. There were a rash of exposures and conspiracy laden tales during the 20th Century most notable of these being the Rev. Hannah's "Darkness Visible" and Stephen Knight's "The Brotherhood". This has never really done Freemasonry much damage as these were in the form of books which did not get much circulation at the time and so had little effect in shaping the public's opinion of the Craft. Therefore we didn't need to address them.

However, what we all need to take account of now is the development, over the last 20 years, of the Internet. Nearly every home has a PC with the majority giving access to the most wonderful development in information communication since Caxton. However with the rise of it, these Authors are now bandied about along with others who although not anti-Masons also weren't Masons but wrote loads of mystic mumbo jumbo about Freemasonry (ie Manly Palmer Hall and WC Heckethorn just to mention 2). The conspiracists today scour these old books and misquote and remove words from their original context and build websites around them that mislead the Public and the Media about Freemasonry. Hundreds and even thousands of people visit these sites day in and day out and come away half believing that we are trying to take over the world (NWO) or the new iIluminati or, even worse, worship the devil in our Lodges.

I wonder how many of the readers here remember or are even aware of the fact that in 1994 the Home Affairs Select Committee (this was here in England not Germany in the 1940s) carried out a public investigation, lasting nearly 2 years, based on the writings of Stephen Knight and his successor Martin Short (he actually appeared as an "expert witness") into the influence of Freemasonry in the Police and Judiciary. I do because I was busy writing to the Home Secretary through my MP decrying such a blatant desecration of one of this coutries oldest institutions. This investigation resulted (apart
from the Media circus) in the fact that today when joining several professions you are required to disclose whether you are a Mason or not, no other groups just Freemasons.

I wonder how many Freemasons bother to look into how long our "secrecy" has actually been around? I know I have and have seen hundreds of photographs and watched old newsreels from the 1920s and 30s showing Masons proudly processing in town centres, carrying out Cornerstone Ceremonies and wearing regalia in public. It was in the early 1940s that our secrecy appeared in response to events that were occurring across Europe.

In this climate those who think about these things have realised that we have to do away with this artificial secrecy. It is not helping the Craft.

Another thing is that these efforts are not aimed at convincing the Conspiracy Theorists that they are stupid (an impossible task, I know I've personally been trying for 15 years) but to stop the Public falling victim to these fantastic tales of Masonic wrongdoings. Just think about it, how can any man come to the Order "having formed a favourable opinion of it" if they don't know who we are and what we do and have only ever seen the material I've mentioned above?

I am very proud to be a Freemason and people who know me, even only vaguely, know that I am a member so I know that my own actions in life(hopefully) reflect honour on the Craft. So I say these little television snippets are long overdue and most welcome. It is time for Freemasonry in Britain to resume its former place as a pillar of Society and to be recognised as such by non-Masons.

Just my tuppence worth Brethren.

S&F,
Mike Martin,
Freemason's Grand Charity
www.merseylodge5434.org
www.thefreemason.com/forum
British Isles Masonic web ring

By Iain - 11/01/2009 14:45:38

[quote][b]This response is not aimed at anyone in particular but I hope will help many to understand why we need to get rid of our sometimes overly secretive side.

[quote]

I agree with freemasonry being more in the public eye, and our processions to service and for remembrance days and such being put back on the calender. and freemasons being more media friendly especialy when involved in local charity works etc, But not like this.

If it keeps going as it is we will be aswell to have our meetings in public. You do not have to divulge masonic secrets to try and gain a public acceptance that can be achieved through charitable deeds.

By joeboy - 11/01/2009 18:48:05

I've followed the discussions and points of view on the UKMason list and having now seen the two videos I am pleasantly surprised.
Yeah there were bits like the close up on the grip and parts of the third and first degree working tools - which I reckon added up to what 4 or 5seconds??
I say its not bad and I think for a change shows a very positive image of our craft.
Its not to everyone's taste and those prats who think we are neo-con new world order b*ll*x will never believe anything else but for a PR exercise it works.
Just a shame as is generally the case with such PR - where were the guys under 50? It would have been nice to see some young faces too.....
S&F
Joe

By lauderdale - 11/01/2009 20:02:32

THIS IS WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was delighted to see both of these clips, some old friends from Berkshire and all working in the spirit of Openness!

English Freemasonry should have been doing this years ago!

As far as I am concerned this is the way to go. I commend the PGM of Berkshire RW Bro Hooton and the Brethren of Khalsa Lodge!

Let's have more of like this!

By Roy V - 11/01/2009 20:11:10

Hear, hear, Mike! I completely agree with all you have said. I know what you have been up against when countering the attacks of the insidious, because I read your work frequently. The people who are trumpeting to the world via the internet what they (in most cases devoutly) believe, will tell everyone more about grips and tokens than Iain could credit - for instance, if Tony Blair picks his nose or scratches his nose when talking to the Pope, these are apparently "masonic signs" and proof that both are 33rd Degree Masons!

None of this means I would encourage the public show of any proper grip, even if it is not in context. However, that is the only part of the videos which I have a complaint about. With so much cr4p spoken about FM by ignorant people with an anti bias, I welcome examples of the "real thing" discreetly on view, in this case, in conjunction with a (female) media representative who displayed an open mind.

The multi-ethnic, multi-religious nature of FM was evident, and I for one was pleased to see the video reports.

I want to respectfully comment on Iain's posts. Respectfully, because he is I understand a very experienced Mason, and a member of a very old and respected Lodge. Actually, though, if I can comprehend his post (and I wasn't too sure I could understand all of it), I am somewhat surprised - I thought that Scottish Freemasonry was much more open than in England, and that no-one had been encouraged to hide the fact of their membership at any time.*

Obviously I did not know that in Scotland, more is kept from public gaze than under the UGLE banner. Therefore, Iain is rather askance at the images he saw. OK, a different GL approach. Fair enough.

* As a point of interest: going back to the Nazi threat, could it be that Scotland is so far from the Channel that they were not so worried at that time? And maybe, with someone like Robbie Burns as an example of masonic membership, and FM membership not being a stigma (as it has been down here in the past), the fact of being a Freemason can be taken as normal, and therefore more than the "UGLE secrets" can be kept private? We in England are still paying the price of "coming out" after too much privacy.

I would echo Iain, though, that a good start for openness would be more show in processing at decent occasions - eg at the Cenotaph?

By Tom Cherup - 11/01/2009 20:29:26

I like what I saw. I hope in my time I get to see you to be a s mainstream as we are here over here.

By Alan Campbell - 11/01/2009 21:46:01

Liked the idea, more openness, but as has been said in the other posts who gives them the right to speak for all freemasons. The grips tokens and words and the ritual should be sacrosanct. What is a freemasons left hand for, covering their work. This should not have been shown. If you want to know about freemasonry then join the craft like the rest of us did.

Openness yes but public processions and church attendances should be the way, Wearing regalia whilst presenting charity cheques for good causes. The cameras should not have been allowed through the lodge room door.

As for the openness of Scottish freemasonry Roy v, we are only as open as the rest of the UK. There are some parts of Scotland where it is very open and virtually the whole village has at least one male family member in the craft, but with the political stand point of some on both sides of the border freemasonry in Scotland for some is kept private.

Not to mention that in Scotland we still have a religious divide and it is still unusual to meet Roman Catholics in Scotland who are members of the craft. There are lots of reasons for this whether it was self imposed exclusion by Catholics or black balling by protestants who didn't want them in the lodge, i am glad to say that this has been changing over the years but there are still some old boys who think that freemasonry is a branch of the Orange order. So yes in Scotland there are those who would like to see freemasonry kept more secret but this is mainly due to the uneducated who tar us all with the same bigoted brush.

By Iain - 11/01/2009 22:08:39

This is what is a big part of the Scottish problem which is where the ailienation of freemasonry comes from.

How many people will it take to read the likes of this (see link) with the addition of watching freemasons on TV and cry bigotry and sectarianism. In Scots freemasonry we have been trying to rid ourselfs from this stigma for a lot of years

The fact is that the orange order was created by at the time Clandestine or hedge masons, Clandestine because they worked degrees outwith the 3 degree system ie the royal arch degrees

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution

With the new TV and book additions being added from freemasons it has the possibility of setting the work we have done over years back, That is why I get heated and somewhat vocal when I see not the anti masons as usual but brothers of the craft adding fuel to a fire that they cannot see.

By David - 12/01/2009 00:14:56

Mike

"It is time for Freemasonry in Britain to resume its former place as a pillar of Society and to be recognised as such by non-Masons." Is this a reference to the radio programme of about 20 years ago called "Masons, pillars of society"?

In it Lord Cornwallis stated the foundations of Freemasonry as friendship and fun and I quoted him at my interview.

I have to say that I have sympathy for Iain's exasperation, the saving grace is that possibly the vast majority of the viewers will have missed the signicance of the bits excercising Ian's and others minds.

While taking on board the comments about the publication of those parts and more in books and the internet, those two programmes, admittedly on a regional basis, will have made many more people aware then are likely to read it in a book or trawl through the internet to find it.

By lauderdale - 12/01/2009 05:42:12

Bro David, even long before the Internet was but a dream, when the one way communications device in most people's home was a Wireless using valves (vacuum tubes) and few had a TV set there was a book published in 1952, Darkness Visible, by Walton Hannah. It is available to this day, from the likes of Amazon and even in the shops in Gt Queen Street London and in Letchworth's Shop in Freemason's Hall itself. I read it in my teens and ignoring Hannah's anti-Masonic opinions I found that it gave a detailed and accurate account of the Rituals etc. It whetted my appetite to become a Freemason. Reading this or any other book will not of course make one a Freemason.

By john lc - 12/01/2009 08:45:30

Brethren,

Below is a link to the East Kent Prov. Website and, inparticular an article on the wreath laying at one of the local Remembrance Parades. I for one certainly encourage this level of openeness, and have laid a wreath on behalf of one of my Lodges (with Military history) for the last couple of years (I am second from right).

http://www.eastkentfreemasons.org/news/2008/Remembrance.shtml

enjoyed the television articles too, but would rather not have seen the grip shown.

By lauderdale - 12/01/2009 17:04:28

Marvellous Bro John, that's the way to go!

By Iain - 12/01/2009 17:24:25

That is outstanding John, That is what I am trying to do in my own home town, We do have a rememberence service internaly that is attended by our Lodge and Chapter and Brethren, But to me it is time for lodges etc to attend the Local services as a lodge

By Roy V - 12/01/2009 17:30:57

John lc: well done, but as has been said elsewhere, "collars only, no aprons".

It would be nice to see a full "pinny parade" marching into church (but stop the DC from holding anyone's hand :blush:).)

By Mike Martin - 12/01/2009 19:22:52

Roy V (12/01/2009)

It would be nice to see a full "pinny parade" marching into church (but stop the DC from holding anyone's hand :blush:).)

Is this the sort of thing you mean?

Laying the Foundation Stone at Lurgan Masonic Hall in 1899 (borrowed from the PGL of Armagh website)

2007 in durham

Mike

By lauderdale - 12/01/2009 19:36:24

Collars are a start but yes I would also like to see the Brethren in Full Regalia, Apron as well as Collar.

By Roy V - 12/01/2009 21:11:52

Yes, Mike, those are good pictures, but I think the Durham one was actually at Beamish museum, and a bit of a one-off.

To discuss other points raised:

"Openness yes but public processions and church attendances should be the way, Wearing regalia whilst presenting charity cheques for good causes"

I agree, but down south, it could be difficult to find a church that would let us through the door - I was in fact stopped from administering the chalice in an Anglican church because someone (+ the new lady priest) objected to a "satan worshipper" being part of the service.

There are some parts of Scotland where it is very open and virtually the whole village has at least one male family member in the craft.

Yeah, like I said, Scotland! (Even in parts.)

there are still some old boys who think that freemasonry is a branch of the Orange order.

Unless proper FM publicises itself more, that is a possibility. I remember asking my proposer to confirm that FM was nothing to do with "that Orange lot in NI". After all, I had seen more of those persons in regalia* than anyone in blue, light or dark.

* Via the TV - we are happily free of that Order down south.

By Iain - 12/01/2009 23:49:33

My mother lodge is a good 200 yards from the church door, But we have to take our regalia over and put it on in the church hall, as one of the older boys says "in my day you put your regalia on at home before going to the meeting now we cant go 200 yards to church".

We are however made very welcome in church and march in under our lodge standards and our devine service is opened to any members of the public who wish to attend, Then we have to get our regalia off to walk the long 200yds back to the lodge.

All it takes is the majority of the brethren at a meeting to vote to walk in regalia to church services etc and that is it, I have tried before and I will try again this year, fingers crossed. If I manage to get it through I will post pictures.

By David - 13/01/2009 00:15:41

Lauderdale (12/01/2009)

Yes Brother, and I like to think friend. I think I am about a decade older than you and well remember the Marconi which only my mother was allowed to operate (certainly not my dad) - I remember when a valve blew, sometimes having to wait a week before a new one could be bought. I too bought Hannah's book about 30 years ago and like you it whetted my appetite. Now I have broadband access, build websites and all sorts of other things hardly imaginable even a few years ago.

I always attempt to put forward my views in a precise manner but In this case the message I intended has failed to register.

Its only a month since I was initiated and even without consulting the personalised copy of the ritual my WM thoughtfully sent me the following morning I can remember the comprehensive and explicit nature of the promise I made not to disclose any part of the ritual.

I think it is beyond dispute that parts of the ritual etc were mentioned during the clips. Had I done that I would have broken my solemn promise. Whilst what was disclosed on TV is (and has been for years) available in books and the internet to those who sought out such information those two programmes, admittedly on a regional basis, placed it before viewers "on a plate" so that many more people are now aware then when it was necessary to seek out a book or trawl through the internet to find it.

By Mike Martin - 13/01/2009 01:28:29

David (13/01/2009)

I think it is beyond dispute that parts of the ritual etc were mentioned during the clips. Had I done that I would have broken my solemn promise. Whilst what was disclosed on TV is (and has been for years) available in books and the internet to those who sought out such information those two programmes, admittedly on a regional basis, placed it before viewers "on a plate" so that many more people are now aware then when it was necessary to seek out a book or trawl through the internet to find it.

I can point you to one website that contains full Emulation Ritual (only edited to include the signs tokens and words in full) as well as Exhaltation and quite a few other Orders' rituals as well. Through the Net it is now on a plate for anyone who wants it.

Mike

By lauderdale - 13/01/2009 05:51:22

Bro Roy, the Orange Order (I am not a member thereof), does have some branches in England, one I think in Portsmouth and I assume some in London and possibly Liverpool, and Corby where there are many Scots. It is however very small down here and I haven't ever seen an "Orange Walk" (Parade) in England nor has anyone here ever said to me that the Masons are connected with the Orange Order.

In Scotland the situation is different as the Orange Order is large and well established in that country, especially in the Glasgow and South-West of Scotland and holds parades. A significant number of people have membership both of the Orange Order and the Freemasons although of course both are completely separate organisations. This can lead to the erroneous belief by some non-Masons, especially RCs in Scotland, that the Orange Order and the Masons are part of the same body.

However, I do not see this as a reason for Masons not to parade in Regalia at some public occasion, to a Church service etc, if that Lodge wishes to do so.

By David - 13/01/2009 09:44:38

Mike Martin (13/01/2009)

David (13/01/2009)

Two points, I would make to that. the Ritual that was disclosed was a few words of the Working Tools of an EA (even though they called them MM) and of all the ritual that should be shared the working tools are it.

I can point you to one website that contains full Emulation Ritual (only edited to include the signs tokens and words in full) as well as Exhaltation and quite a few other Orders' rituals as well. Through the Net it is now on a plate for anyone who wants it.

Mike

Yes, I understand that - but you are still missing the point I am trying to make about television coverage[u][/u] I give up!

By daves - 13/01/2009 22:04:58

[b]David (13/01/2009)
Its only a month since I was initiated and even without consulting the personalised copy of the ritual my WM thoughtfully sent me the following morning I can remember the comprehensive and explicit nature of the promise I made not to disclose any part of the ritual.

After I was initiated, I was asked how I planned to memorise the Answers for my Passing. I was further told that writing down or inputting into my PC those Answers in full would be a breach of my SO and that I should put in dot, dot, dot in the relevant bits. Although it disappoints me that other feel free to break their SO, I will continue to be cautious. IMHO the SO is about the individual FM and his fidelity to it.

I understand that our monthly GL Masonic Bulletin is sent to all public libraries in the State. The MB contains many photos of Brethren in full regalia as well as stories about specific Masonic charitable activities

By David - 13/01/2009 22:19:38

"Although it disappoints me that other feel free to break their SO, I will continue to be cautious. IMHO the SO is about the individual FM and his fidelity to it."

I am all for openness. Sussex is one of the Provinces that has a stand at the County Show and I couldn't agree with you more. I am delighted that you understand my point. I have to say I am very surprised and dissapointed regarding how sanguine people are about that aspect of the programmes. I realise they are far more experienced in Masonic matters than I am but nevertheless I stand by my opinion and the promise I made. (For the avoidance of doubt I am not suggesting that they are taking their obligations lightly -its just my opinion)

By lauderdale - 14/01/2009 05:33:46

When I had to learn Ritual, back in 1995/96 when in the Chair of my Mother Lodge in Brighton, I recorded it onto a cassette tape and played it via a Sony Walkman learning on my way to work, on the train, going for a walk etc. I was alone when the tape was recorded and when I no longer needed it I burned the tape. It made it much easier to hear the words in my own voice. I also found a good way to learn was to type out on my PC what I had memorised then compare this to the words in the Ritual Book, correcting in bold those words I had got wrong . Again when no longer needed this was shredded. Living alone I have no issue regarding "Cowans". Nowadays I no longer have this problem and can concentrate on understanding the words in the Ritual and polish my delivery of them in Lodge and to the Candidate.

By David - 14/01/2009 11:44:21

Excellent advice. I will try this for my forthcoming passing.

By Will - 14/01/2009 19:56:19

I am very proud to be a Freemason and people who know me, even only vaguely, know that I am a member so I know that my own actions in life(hopefully) reflect honour on the Craft. So I say these little television snippets are long overdue and most welcome. It is time for Freemasonry in Britain to resume its former place as a pillar of Society and to be recognised as such by non-Masons.

Just my tuppence worth Brethren.

I agree 100% with Mike's views here.
I thought that the programmes were balanced and fair and I certainly don't think that any harm whatsoever was done - far from it. IMHO openness will be vital to our very survival. There is no point in saying, "We have always done it this way" - times change and we need to change with them. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with our traditions, quite the opposite. However, this is the 21st Century and we are now seeing a far more positive attitude to Freemasonry than has been present for some time now. We need to do all we can to develop and encourage this positive attitude. Again, from a personal point of view (everyone is entitled to their own opinion) I think that the PGM and information team in Berkshire are to be congratulated in allowing the programmes to be made.

By Iain - 15/01/2009 10:42:09

I dont disagree with the more openess and being more visible in public. But in my opinion the snippets showen break our SO, And more so show 1 lodge deciding for freemasonry world wide what is acceptable to make public and what isnt.

How do you get a candidate to take a SO seriously when he has seen it broken on TV by more experienced masons. It turns one of our most serious sides into a farce which can be discussed openly.

I know freemasonry has to come out of its shell more and be more publicly aware but give away our few treasured secrets and what is left.

We have stood the test of time through civil and world wars, our obligations have served us well through many times of troubles and distress, The one thing that has saved us is being able to find a brother through darkness and light, But now Well how can we be sure ? The grip is public knowledge our words are online and our SO publicly broken without penalty.

Where did we lose controll after all these hundreds of years, And when did it become acceptable for one brother or one lodge to decide for a craft of millions

By Mike Martin - 15/01/2009 11:14:57

I'm just going to chuck something further into this which occurs to me. I've seen several people state that this is breaking Masonic Obligations.

Just to clarify: under the Obligation (Emulation) that I took as a Freemason under the UGLE I am obliged not to reveal the "secrets and mysteries" of Freemasonry, my obligation didn't say secrets + ritual + business etc etc. My Ritual does NOT bother to deliniate what those "secrets" so the GL of which I am a member has said it is the signs, tokens and words.

So according to the Obligations that I took in the 3 Degrees I could quite happily make a film or write a book divulging the entire Ritual including the full Lectures and as long as I do not illustrate any grips, tokens or words I would be true to the Obligations that I took.

So from my persepective (and any other UGLE Mason btw), the only part of the film that wasn't acceptable was the grip.

Of course it may be that other Constitutions actually specify what can't be disclosed within the body of their Obligation but I've never heard the possibility mentioned till this topic came about.

Mike

By wolfy - 15/01/2009 12:34:21

yep thats it, basically thought it was a great and open piece, well done.

But that the "Secret" yes this is the OFFICIAL secret of 1 degree of UGLE was so openly flaunted has upset me. if we were to do that of our own back, i am pretty sure we would be severely reprimanded. so why can they do it when they want without having to answer for it?

apart from that 2 or 3 second piece however, I thought it was well done and did reflect positively on the Craft as a whole.

Now my mate has always asked what the handshake was...maybe i should just tell him? or show him anyway???? :unsure:

By Tom Cherup - 15/01/2009 19:37:05

James,

I Agree wit Mike. What I obligated to is the same as Mike has took.

Jim, for a second stop take a breath and look at it again not form a Mason's view but from the Public's eye.

What do they see - men over dressed having on strange garb greeting one another and doing something ritualistic.

If you were to come to my lodge yes you would get a hand shake, you may also get embraced. What would be read into that?

By lauderdale - 15/01/2009 19:57:22

For the last 20 years I have always shaken people's hands one way. I would actually have to think about it to not give then a Masonic handshake, it is core programmed into me now.

By wolfy - 15/01/2009 21:09:50

Brothers please dont miss understand what im saying :)

Overall i liked the news items. end of....thats it :)

But I did take an obligation not to "let be known" the secrets of FM, which are officially classified as the G or T, S and W.

yes sometimes they accidentally occur f you do something you dont mean to, but this was planned and approved.

Tom, you say come to your lodge, yes I would get a grip yes i may even be embraced, but it would be done in private and not openly for the public. thats the only bit i didnt like.

I bet if I was to put a picture of the signs or write the words to a poster and place it in a window at GQS or any masonic centre for the public to see I would probably be disciplined. there really isnt a difference for that single part of the show.

However im NOT saying that it didnt show FM in a good light, nor am i saying that it wasnt even handed.

I hope that clears things up a little about what im trying to say :)

By Alan Campbell - 15/01/2009 21:25:44

If we are looking at this from a ritualistic point of view Mike I also said in my obligation i that i would hele, conceal and never reveal i also said that i would not print, carve, engrave or otherwise delineate them so that the secrets of freemasonry may be unlawfully obtained through my unworthiness.

I would then have to say that the brethren involved in this clip are unworthy of being called masons.

By Mike Martin - 15/01/2009 21:58:45

Alan Campbell (15/01/2009)

That's my point Alan, my Obligation was :

"of my own free will and accord, do hereby and hereon most solemnly promise and swear that I will always hele, conceal, and never reveal any or either of the secrets or mysteries of or belonging to the Degree of a Master Mason to anyone in the world"

My Grand Lodge says that is the grips tokens and words and the Ritual doesn't specify any more than that.

That's why I asked if anyone's Obligation was more specific than ours? If they're not then it is purely a matter of interpretation and tradition alone.

Alan Campbell (15/01/2009)

I would then have to say that the brethren involved in this clip are unworthy of being called masons.

I am still waiting to talk to someone as it has been mentioned that the grip may have been added later but to be honest I don't know.

By Will - 15/01/2009 22:10:20

Each to his own and everyone's opinion is equally valid.
But I do think that saying such things as "unworthy to be called Masons" is more than unnecessary. The whole programme was made with the co-operation, participation and permission of the PGM of Berkshire. He, in turn, undoubtedly cleared every aspect of participation with Grand Lodge.
As with all such matters, opinions can differ but they should not become devisive and the use of expressions such as I have already re-quoted helps nobody.

By wolfy - 15/01/2009 23:26:26

Mike Martin (15/01/2009)

That's my point Alan, my Obligation was :

My Grand Lodge says that is the grips tokens and words and the Ritual doesn't specify any more than that.

That's why I asked if anyone's Obligation was more specific than ours? If they're not then it is purely a matter of interpretation and tradition alone.

sorry mike i must have missed this part, I have the above quoted part of the obligation in each of the degrees, so that i will always H, C, and never R any or either of..blah blah blah in each of the degrees, not just that of MM so that has broken the ob for grip. as to the mysteries, well thats never dictated but there wasnt much ritual there to consider the mysteries lost in my mind.

By Tom Cherup - 15/01/2009 23:58:31

James you need a tour of that big temple/hall here in detroit. You see or what you will fine are that the gargoyles on the building ( they don't work) are giving the signs of each degree. You would have to know where to look to find them.

By Mike Martin - 16/01/2009 00:48:16

wolfy (15/01/2009)

James, I wasn't trying to negate the grip i've already said that I would rather not have seen that. It was just Alan said to look at it ritualistically so I was only quoting the relevant part of Mm. You're right it is very similar in all 3 craft degrees (in Emulation) but I didn't see the point in sticking them all in:D.

That's why I'm sort of hoping the peole who are saying the whole thing is bad will actually state whether their Obligation does actually get more specific than mine. That would explain it to me, I'm just interested.

By Alan Campbell - 16/01/2009 20:45:29

Will (15/01/2009)

Will, this is solely from a ritualistic point of view, My obligation stated that, "so that the secrets may be revelaed through my unworthiness". These brothers have divulged the secrets they are therefore unworthy or have i missed the meaning of those words and misinterpreted my oath de fideli.

My oath was taken on a Bible, not something that i took lightly and something that i gave a great deal of thought too before i did it. I don't want the ritual or freemasonry watered down to make it more PC, i am happy with freemasonry the mystery, if you want to know more come along and join. I did, and so did thousands of others.

Yes tell them we are a respectable society which has secret means of recognition, explain that we try to make good people better, explain that we give to charity, eplain the we are a non denominational group, explain what you want but not the secrets that oath was to my fellow brothers and god and i don't think that any Grand lodge or Provincial grand lodge has the right to decide that it is now okay to reveal secrets because they want people to think better of them.

So in conclusion according to the oath i took and i'm sure its not that different from UGLE, i will call these brothers unworthy to be masons because they broke their oath and divulged(even if only a small part) part of the secrets of freemasonry.

By bob c - 16/01/2009 21:36:15

I think the secrets of Freemasonry may mean different things to different people. As most say it is the signs and tokens and words, but to others it may mean the whole of the lodge workings.

To me, putting aside the signs, tokens, and words as the secrets, the true meaning of the secrets I believe is that which is felt by each and everyone of us who have taken that step to join. These particular secrets can never be revealed as I believe you need to participate to experience them. I still find it hard to explain my experience of initiation to others when asked.

Another part of the secrets, imo, is the history that is kept within the old minute books and records of the various lodges.

By lauderdale - 16/01/2009 21:37:16

One of the Brethren in the film is the UGLE PGM for their Province of Berkshire, R W Bro Michael Hooton. I have met him on many occasions and he is one of the better PGMs to say the least and that coming from someone who does not usually have a lot of time for PGMs and that structure of Masonic Governance. He would I am sure have thought carefully about the film and what was contained therein and have weighed it up in the interests of Freemasonry.

I would not presume to judge his worthiness to be a Mason. I do not feel I have that right. I would say that I found him to be an honourable man.

By Will - 17/01/2009 00:12:42

Not a topic that I intend to revisit again. Bro. Alan, you have your opinion and I have mine, for them to differ is not a problem. I merely stated that using such strong terms is of no assistance to anyone.

By David - 17/01/2009 00:58:27

Lauderdale (16/01/2009)

Brother as you know I fully respect your experience and judgement. I am sure that in particular your statement "he thought carefully about the film and what was contained therein and have weighed it up in the interests of Freemasonry." is correct. He may of course, notwithstanding his eminence and years of experience, have made an error of judgement - who hasn't. Furthermore I doubt he saw or had any control over the content of the final edit of the clips as transmitted.

As a recent initiate I would not have the impertinence to criticise or even really consider anyones worthiness to be a mason (or anyone who chooses to criticise for that matter) BUT I can understand why others choose to do that.

Forums such as this are democratic and seem to have the minimum of "interference" by moderators. We are all absolutely entitled to our views. It is regrettable that often the baby is thrown out with the bathwater in the sense in this case any criticsm of these clips, is seen in some quarters as an attack on openness in general.

I have probably said too much - the last thing I want to do, as a new member of the fraternity, is to appear to be an unthinking, unforgiving zealot.

By Tom Cherup - 17/01/2009 03:36:26

wolfy (15/01/2009)

not just that of MM so that has broken the ob for grip. as to the mysteries, well thats never dictated but there wasnt much ritual there to consider the mysteries lost in my mind.

Jim,

I too saw the grip like you and Mike. I feel it stood out becuse we as Masons are able to see what degree by the grip. But I wonder seeing it from the public's eye they having no knowledge of Masonry will see it of just a hand shake or greeting.

By wolfy - 17/01/2009 07:36:09

Tom,

Honestly I dont know, if you think about the image we have as Masons normally people instantly think about the "handshake". I would have thought it was quite obvious to anyone watching, though whether or not they thought it was a real grip or not, thats another question entirely ;)

By lauderdale - 17/01/2009 09:06:06

Bro David, do not admonish yourself in any way, the whole reason for a Masonic Forum is to be able freely to discuss those matters we either feel diffident about raising at for example LOI or even in the bar after a Meeting for fear of feeling silly or being told, "That's not for you to ask" or even that the Brother you speak to simply does not know or even does not care about that aspect of The Craft. A Forum lets anyone, from the newest EA to a Grand Master were they to post here, ask questions or pose a topic for discussion, or pass their opinion on some Masonic matter. I feel that such Fora compensate for the lack of discussion or the facility thereof in many Lodges and are a great way to enhance one's Masonic Knowledge, I have learned a great deal about Freemasonry and have even made Masonic Friendships thereby. I feel that the Moderators here have got the level of intervention about right although I do feel that occasionally they are a wee bit strong on threads which wander a bit off topic, as this is what happens in any conversation. Still, TFM Forum has stood the test of time so they must be doing it right!

Having met RW Bro Hooton on many occasions I have the advantage in knowing him to be, at least in my estimation, a "Good Mason". I feel confident that he would not sanction anything which was harmful to The Craft.

Weighing it all up I feel that far more good than harm will accrue to Freemasonry from a film such as this. Indeed I have had people I work with who saw it on our local TV speak favourably to me about it, I do not hide that I am a Freemason from my co-workers. In any event, as is often remarked, the "secrets" of Freemasonry have been available since 1952 and I frankly have forgotten how to give anything but a Masonic handshake which everyone receives from me, as this is one way I can ascertain if the person I am meeting is "On the Square" or not, and in my case as a Co-Mason that includes women as well as men.

As others here have remarked the true Secrets of Freemasonry are not in handshakes, movements of the hands and arms, or in words in an ancient tongue but are known only to the Brother who experiences them and are written not on the paper of a Ritual Book but in the Heart.

By daves - 17/01/2009 22:51:50

Lauderdale (16/01/2009)

I'm sure that RW Bro Hooton is an honourable man or else how did he rise to such a high position within the Craft. However with such high position comes great responsibility. If EAs, FCs and MMs make an error of judgment wrt the Craft, it's probably of much less effect than if a PGM makes an error of judgment. One would hope that RW Bro Hooton would have thought long and hard through the issues at stake here and taken appropriate counsel.

However for me, the golden rule is, "What goes on in the Lodge, stays in the Lodge."

S&F

Dave

By Roy V - 18/01/2009 19:03:31

Following on from Wolfy, I would agree that the grip is possibly the worst thing to show, and the most likely to be picked up by the public.

Certain other movements might be ignored, but as he says, "everyone knows about Masonic handshakes".

By lauderdale - 18/01/2009 19:14:40

If as you say "everyone knows about Masonic handshakes" then that film is no problem.

Over the 20 years I have been in The Craft I have received some handshakes from people who I knew were not Brother Masons. Some were very close, others quite obviously an invention of their own, (and I do know that the Scots Grip is more complex than its English equivalents).

There are other means of course to elicit whether someone is a Mason or a Cowan and I was able to detect imposters.

I must say I find it a novel experience to be batting on the side of an UGLE PGM!

By Tom Cherup - 18/01/2009 20:32:55

Steve, I agree with you. I've had some who think that they was what they thought was the grip and want to copy it and see if it works and it they could get away with it. Most members of the craft can alway tell from a real member then from those showing their lack of Masonry, they just look like fools.

By sjdobby - 16/03/2009 21:02:52

Joe,

The "grips, signs and words" that we keep secret relate to our means of recognition - this goes back to the days before membership cards, etc.

However, to a certain extent (and in my opinion), just as important as keeping our grips/etc secret "for security purposes" (just as people have to do so with their bank-card PINs, their passwords onto their computers at work, etc), we keep these few secrets because we said we would - at our Degree ceremonies we were obligated to do so. It is a matter of honour - keeping the secrets (regardless of whether they are useful or useless / meaningful or meaningless to non-Masons) is symbolic of the seriousness with which we made our obligations.

Regards

By lauderdale - 16/03/2009 23:30:37

Joe Hopkins, for one who is not a Freemason you have hit the nail on the head when you say "The obvious answer to me, being a non-mason, is that the true meaning is in the hearts of the men performing it. If that answer is the truth, then opening your doors and revealing the superficial side of your secrets can never reveal the true meaning. This true meaning can only be communicated from one mason to the other, and can still be done secretly, even though the superficial part of that communication is no longer a secret.".

As others and myself have said the tangible "secrets" have been in the Public Domain for decades now and with the Internet are even more readily ascertained. This will not make the reader a Freemason, no more than only reading the Bible would make one a Christian. As you have so beautifully put it "The true meaning is in the hearts of the men performing it.", and as I am a Co-Mason I would take men to mean women too in this instance.

By Brother_TJ - 17/03/2009 01:09:51

I believe that the only thing that is not fully revealed to the public, with all the revealing going on on the Internet and other sources, is the password you give the OG (and I am not talking about Original Gangster) before you enter the Mediation Room.

The best part though... the majority of my friends (non masons) would look up all the passwords, passgrips, signs, steps, you name it and tell me what it is, but they can never tell me the pwords to get one foot into the Mediation (aka Hall entrance) room near the entrance to the Lodge. You have to get that password before you start any spiritual journey. That password, in my opinion, is the most important password, the pword before all passwords are given.

This password is changed often and for good reason. Yet I do not know if this is true with other Obidences.

And that my friends is a secret.

By Roy V - 17/03/2009 19:19:42

Going back to the title of this thread, over the weekend I watched an episode of A Touch of Frost. He was questioning a suspect who said if she wanted a lawyer she wouldn't need Legal Aid.

Frost sagely replied that if she could afford an expensive lawyer, "chances are you'll get one out of the same Lodge as the judge."

I checked later - the episode was made nearly ten years ago. Hopefully things have changed in the media since then?

By lauderdale - 18/03/2009 00:11:51

"Hopefully things have changed in the media since then?"

I wouldn't hold your breath Bro Roy. They still take a pot shot at The Craft be it some cheap comedian wanting a quick laugh or so-called Journalists trying to dish the dirt.